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SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

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Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#261

Post by masklinn »

niggler wrote: post #244
masklinn wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Read your article: I've read it several times, just in case the text changed between my visits > I still suspect this was a firing for many reasons, not just this incident. And yet the post provides no information whatsoever and crucially does not come close to hinting that this was not the reason, you'd think. There may have been other reasons, but the timing is odd, why wait until he gets involved in something at…

"just in case the text changed between my visits" I've seen that happen before, so I apologize for my insinuation if the quote was added between your reading and mine. "the post provides no information whatsoever and crucially does not at any point indicate this was not the reason" You can't assume that the firing was 100% due to the issue at hand, and I'm saying that I don't think it was 100%. Other people seem to b…

> You can't assume that the firing was 100% due to the issue at hand

Of course not (especially as his colleague was not fired) but in a blog post purporting to "provide some clarity" on "a number of inaccuracies being reported", considering the basic assumption that he was fired for it, you'd think that would be part of the clarity.

Instead the post weasels around with no specifics whatsoever, declaring "a thorough investigation" (of a few hours) but that not "all the factors" would be commented on (none whatsoever were commented on). They've also refused to publish (let alone respond) to a single comment so far.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#263

Post by jamesaguilar »

jakejake wrote: post #123
onemorepassword wrote: post #49

In events like these I'm glad I'm living under protective labor laws and not in the US. That would have forced all parties involved to talk it out like grown-ups instead of resorting to terminating those involved. Now there is no kind of resolution, but two people are unemployed and two companies are damaged. Nice going.

This is the second post I've read recently about the US having no labor laws. Is that what everybody outside the US thinks? There's tons of laws and certain types of jobs are very difficult to fire people (unionized industries and govt. jobs). And there are laws and lawsuits for wrongful termination. Private companies still have labor laws they have to obey. Except for certain types of issues employees can be fired.…

If I had to guess, Adria at least has a pretty easily won harassment lawsuit against SendGrid for this. She was fired for speaking out about an instance of sexually inappropriate humor while she was acting in a professional capacity. Um? Even if you think the way she spoke out was not appropriate, you can't fire someone for this without running some serious risks of large lawsuits.

For anyone who's curious, the texts I'm working off of are http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/retaliation.cfm and http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/facts-retal.cfm. It seems pretty clear that Adria is a covered individual and that an adverse action has been taken. SendGrid is almost certainly a covered entity. The remaining question is whether Adria has engaged in a protected activity and if that is what she was fired for.

The protected activity I think most closely matches what she did is, "Complaining to anyone about alleged discrimination against oneself or others." Now, in the case of this document, what they mean by alleged discrimination is any harassing behavior. But, I believe it is also typically only such behaviors by someone working at the covered entity. So the open question in my mind is whether the law covers adverse actions for complaints about harassment by third parties. I guess we'd have to ask a lawyer.

To the question of whether that is what she was fired for. If it isn't, it's quite a coincidence. I think it would be hard for SendGrid to convince a judge that she was fired for something other than her complaint.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#264

Post by devilshaircut »

doktrin wrote: post #233
devilshaircut wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I in fact agree with you and think you are 100% right but I think you are parsing the situation incorrectly. In fact it seems to be Ms. Richards who will cause women to be reluctant to report real sexual harassment. Let me draw from a past experience of mine involving a female colleague who was sexually harassed. She related the situation to me and I had absolutely no doubt that what was said to her was inappropriate…

This is perhaps the greatest tragedy of this whole debacle. It has simultaneously trivialized sexism & discrimination while promoting the paranoid fear that any minor innocuous comment could end up as a shitpile trainwreck on Twitter. By calling out a non-thing as a wolf, she has effectively raised the bar on real harassment being reported. Likewise, otherwise well intentioned men will be looking over their shoulder…

I absolutely agree with you that this is potentially the greatest travesty and that the whole thing is a debacle.

I reposted this story on my Facebook and literally the only people who commented on it were my female friends/colleagues in the technology industry. Needless to say their reaction was a collective groan.

It is so unfortunate because - as we agree - sexism is such a huge problem that we are certainly not exempt from. And situations like this dilute the real struggles women face in a male-dominated industry.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#265

Post by nettdata »

blindhippo wrote: post #136
canttestthis wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DDOS attack on SendGrid's web and mail servers stopped about an hour and a half after they announced that they were firing Richards. Also the community backlash against Richards was huge, while there weren't many supporting her actions. From SendGrid's point of view, this was a good business decision.

No, it sure as hell was not a "good business decision". They got attacked by errant children expressing sad rage at something that while bad, was not deserving of retaliation against the company. So the result: the company ditches one of their employees for very dubious reasons. Basically they caved to internet bullying and validated every sexist moron on the internet. Well done Sendgrid. Well done.

No.

She made a big stink about what she overheard in a private conversation between two friends, and posted it on Twitter. Probably would not have been a big deal except that one of them, a father of three, was fired as a result. Not her direct doing, but seemingly a consequence of her actions.

She then was found to be a bit of a hypocrite, based on her own tweets: https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 (she makes her own dick joke)

Some more digging found that she's made some strangely bizarre comments about racism, saying "Black people can't be racist". https://twitter.com/adriarichards/statuses/6039856858

She then says that her company stands behind her, bringing them into the mix. https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/314452708549603328

That was her undoing.

She made a big deal out of something that shouldn't have been, handled it in a totally unprofessional manner, brought a bunch of unwanted attention to her and her employer, and made her association to her employer a problem for her employer.

She was the author of her demise, nobody else.

EDIT: Edited to better reflect the timeline, which I totally mis-tense-ified initially.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#266

Post by niggler »

WalterSear wrote: post #223
niggler wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" the actions that resulted from that." The actions that resulted from that were the employers' fault. If she claimed they molested her (which is illegal and can result in jail time) when they didn't, then you have a point. But the comment they made was uncontested and the employer decided, for a multitude of reasons including the recent matter, to let the guy go. What if the employer was ready to fire him already, a…

The difference is the one between negligence and manslaughter. If your negligent actions result in something else down the line, you are still, in part, responsible. There can, and usually is, more than 100% blame to go around.

She wrote: "I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively." (emphasis mine)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399047

I think that's the most we can expect from her regarding the guy getting fired. She didn't fire him, and she clearly expressed that she didn't think he should have been fired over this.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#267

Post by gregd »

ericabiz wrote: post #217
blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

> "Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women." Okay, time to speak up! Hi, I'm a woman in tech. And this upset me, but not for the reasons you think. I agree that Adria went too far in publicly Tweeting and "name and shaming" these guys. But the vitriol and hate that has spewed forth online to her is what takes my breath away. Comments calling…

Please do not mistake the social ineptitude of others in the tech industry, as applying equally to the rest of us.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#268

Post by fatjokes »

zshprompt wrote: post #18

I feel that all the threats and horrible comments she received are disgusting. I didn't find their joke offensive. But thats irrelevant. She had a right to complain. But not by posting their picture on twitter. Posting that picture was a really rotten thing to do. Its an act of bullying. I can take a picture of anyone and they would have said whatever I put on the caption. And its up to them to prove to the internet…

> I feel that all the threats and horrible comments she received are disgusting.

No arguments here, but this sounds like typical Internet comments. The tech community is pretty big, a percentage of them are going to be assholes (and given the gender imbalance, most of them are going to be men). Point being: these comments are no more representative of the average tech worker than YouTube comments are representative of the general populace.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#269

Post by knowtheory »

camus wrote: post #259
ericabiz wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women." Okay, time to speak up! Hi, I'm a woman in tech. And this upset me, but not for the reasons you think. I agree that Adria went too far in publicly Tweeting and "name and shaming" these guys. But the vitriol and hate that has spewed forth online to her is what takes my breath away. Comments calling…

You think women are having hard time in tech ? then you sure dont want to be black like me ,with people refusing to work with "niggers" ...

Discrimination is not a zero-sum game.

Just because people are talking about the way women are treated doesn't mean that people don't care about or are ignoring how black people are treated.

Your experience does not negate the offenses directed at women, nor does their experience negate yours.

It's unacceptable to treat people like this full stop, whether you're in tech or not.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#270

Post by RougeFemme »

blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

I'm a woman in tech. I think she can continue to function as a women's tech evangelist. Yes, there are women who are furious with her, but there are also plenty of women who have been in her corner, whether or not they agree with how she handled the situation. And for a lot of the women who've been on the fence since all of this exploded, this firing will probably push them into her corner. Loss of credibility as a dev evangelist? I'll buy that to a large degree. Loss of credibility as a women's tech evangelist? Probably not as much as you think.
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