Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Woman in Brazil enslaved for 55 years by 3 generations of the same family

english.elpais.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 281 posts

Re: Woman in Brazil enslaved for 55 years by 3 generations of the same family

#261

Post by 59percentmore »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #249
59percentmore wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's incorrect. The baseline need that poverty is calculated relative to is itself calculated relative to local conditions. Because inequality drives those local conditions, poverty cannot exist without it. Your post is proof of the insidiousness of inequality. It allows for outcomes to be warped by the presence or lack of aggregated capital, without presenting a direct attack on outcomes. As long as you are able t…

> Because inequality drives those local conditions... That is not in evidence. You may be thinking of inflationary pressures causing the poverty income level to be adjusted upward. This is not a result of income inequality. It is a result of supply and demand. > "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." That is an aphorism, not a universal truth, and holds zero moral weight. You may be judged as corrupt b…

What if some people are just bad at doing things for themselves? We have a society, communities, families... ...because humans are truly pitiful on their own. (Said with a sad smile.)

Consider that you just haven't found something useful for me to do.

If it's too much for you, I guess you could stop. If wouldn't be your fault if I couldn't keep things together.

>This is not a result of income inequality. It is a result of supply and demand.

Incorrect. Inequality increases the pool of wealth with which "haves" may bid up the prices of commodities, real property, and services. And they do, effectively increasing demand. Transitively, inequality drives inflation, i.e., local conditions.

>That is an aphorism, not a universal truth

You might want to revisit the definition of "aphorism". (It generally includes the word "truth".)

>You may be judged as corrupt by what you do, not by what you have.

And have another: "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Implicit is that you will hammer nails. Property is intrinsically tied with action. Held power is to be wielded, even when it's not warranted; the only way not to is to give it up.

>This is envy as evidence.

I would love to understand this obsession with envy among the elite. If I take your gun and immediately throw it into the ocean, was that envy?

It's funny to me that you deride a "system-zero" world and then immediately champion a "just world". They're the same thing. And though you may believe in it, I never said I did.

The practical solution to a world with increasing (wealth) inequality is to decrease it. It will never reach zero. That's not the point. It's to affect the balance of power so that when someone powerful steps out of line, it is possible to punish them; so that things earned can be kept (and so that he definition of "earn" may be reasonable itself); so that we're not forced to consider the farce of referring to a reaction to someone's previously-accumulated wealth as "pre-punishment."

>What qualifies a level as inordinate?

One could say that it's relative.

Re: Woman in Brazil enslaved for 55 years by 3 generations of the same family

#262

Post by 59percentmore »

argentinian wrote: post #247
59percentmore wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corruption is a enabled by inequality.

There is rich people that steal from rich people. There are many cases of corruption where poverty is not a factor.

They steal from those they have the power to steal from. Power is measured as a delta from a baseline. If corruption requires power, it requires inequality.

Re: Woman in Brazil enslaved for 55 years by 3 generations of the same family

#263

Post by argentinian »

59percentmore wrote: post #261
slowmovintarget wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because inequality drives those local conditions... That is not in evidence. You may be thinking of inflationary pressures causing the poverty income level to be adjusted upward. This is not a result of income inequality. It is a result of supply and demand. > "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." That is an aphorism, not a universal truth, and holds zero moral weight. You may be judged as corrupt b…

What if some people are just bad at doing things for themselves? We have a society, communities, families... ...because humans are truly pitiful on their own. (Said with a sad smile.) Consider that you just haven't found something useful for me to do. If it's too much for you, I guess you could stop. If wouldn't be your fault if I couldn't keep things together. >This is not a result of income inequality. It is a resu…

> Inequality increases the pool of wealth with which "haves" may bid up the prices of commodities, real property, and services. And they do, effectively increasing demand. Transitively, inequality drives inflation, i.e., local conditions.

Impossible if there's competition between producers and it's at world scale.

> What if some people are just bad at doing things for themselves?

Tyrannies begin with those kind of ideas.

And inflation is a General increase in prices, not the increase of a specific good.

Re: Woman in Brazil enslaved for 55 years by 3 generations of the same family

#264

Post by argentinian »

59percentmore wrote: post #262
argentinian wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is rich people that steal from rich people. There are many cases of corruption where poverty is not a factor.

They steal from those they have the power to steal from. Power is measured as a delta from a baseline. If corruption requires power, it requires inequality.

There's is poor people who exploit other poor people. Poor people that sends children to work for example. Only the rich can use power for evil? A stronger or armed person has a power differential with a weaker person. A smarter person has more power than a dumber one. And it's impossible for the smarter one to lend intelligence to another, and to the stronger one to give muscles to the weaker one. And in spite of this, many humans behave compassionately and respect laws.

Re: Woman in Brazil enslaved for 55 years by 3 generations of the same family

#265

Post by argentinian »

59percentmore wrote: post #260
argentinian wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You redefined the word poverty there, that's not the common or dictionary definition. Even with wealth equality, as long as there's scarcity, some people would try to gain advantages over others with means different than money: e.g advantageous connections with others, deception, etc. There's corruption among poor people, and rich people also steal from other rich people. An utopic idea of equality blocks the capacit…

>You redefined the word poverty there, that's not the common or dictionary definition. He says, without citation. >Even with wealth equality, as long as there's scarcity, some people would try to gain advantages over others with means different than money No one says that wealth equality leads to an absolutely equal society; that's a straw man. What is incontrovertibly true, and empirically proven to be so, is that s…

Dictionaries are easily available.

> The poor and rich are not equally corrupt

He said, without citation. Also it seems you don't know much about poor people.

Re: Woman in Brazil enslaved for 55 years by 3 generations of the same family

#266

Post by 59percentmore »

argentinian wrote: post #264
59percentmore wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They steal from those they have the power to steal from. Power is measured as a delta from a baseline. If corruption requires power, it requires inequality.

There's is poor people who exploit other poor people. Poor people that sends children to work for example. Only the rich can use power for evil? A stronger or armed person has a power differential with a weaker person. A smarter person has more power than a dumber one. And it's impossible for the smarter one to lend intelligence to another, and to the stronger one to give muscles to the weaker one. And in spite of th…

>A stronger or armed person has a power differential with a weaker person. A smarter person has more power than a dumber one.

These are all examples of inequality.

>There's is poor people who exploit other poor people. Poor people that sends children to work for example. Only the rich can use power for evil?

Rich people have greater reach to do evil commensurate with their wealth. It is a matter of such a degree that it becomes a qualitative difference.

>And it's impossible for the smarter one to lend intelligence to another, and to the stronger one to give muscles to the weaker one.

Did you think before you wrote this?

It would be better to just admit that you're wrong.

Re: Woman in Brazil enslaved for 55 years by 3 generations of the same family

#267

Post by 59percentmore »

argentinian wrote: post #263
59percentmore wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if some people are just bad at doing things for themselves? We have a society, communities, families... ...because humans are truly pitiful on their own. (Said with a sad smile.) Consider that you just haven't found something useful for me to do. If it's too much for you, I guess you could stop. If wouldn't be your fault if I couldn't keep things together. >This is not a result of income inequality. It is a resu…

> Inequality increases the pool of wealth with which "haves" may bid up the prices of commodities, real property, and services. And they do, effectively increasing demand. Transitively, inequality drives inflation, i.e., local conditions. Impossible if there's competition between producers and it's at world scale. > What if some people are just bad at doing things for themselves? Tyrannies begin with those kind of id…

>Impossible if there's competition between producers and it's at world scale.

That's a goalpost move if I've ever seen it. Maybe a No True Scotsman fallacy, too.

Geography confers varying conditions at world scale. Hence, "local" is the window. And producers create cartels unless regulated; wealth accrues to itself, capital returns more than labor. Piketty.

>Tyrannies begin with those kind of ideas.

You can't see me but I'm rolling my eyes.

Re: Woman in Brazil enslaved for 55 years by 3 generations of the same family

#268

Post by 59percentmore »

argentinian wrote: post #265
59percentmore wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You redefined the word poverty there, that's not the common or dictionary definition. He says, without citation. >Even with wealth equality, as long as there's scarcity, some people would try to gain advantages over others with means different than money No one says that wealth equality leads to an absolutely equal society; that's a straw man. What is incontrovertibly true, and empirically proven to be so, is that s…

Dictionaries are easily available. > The poor and rich are not equally corrupt He said, without citation. Also it seems you don't know much about poor people.

>Dictionaries are easily available.

You should use one.

>He said, without citation. Also it seems you don't know much about poor people.

It is a structural impossibility for a poor person to be as absolutely corrupt from an extrinsic viewpoint as a rich person, as much as it is a physical impossibility for an ant to be as absolutely strong as a bear. You're conflating some measure of (subjective) inner morality with actual effects in the real world.

Happy World Cup.

Re: Woman in Brazil enslaved for 55 years by 3 generations of the same family

#269

Post by spwa4 »

owebmaster wrote: post #259
spwa4 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, today, in the whole middle east everyone, from governments to individual families, keep getting "embarassed" by having it turn that that they're "holding servants". And then it happens again. And again. And again. Daesh/IS "brought back" slavery (which is one reason bringing back terror brides, some of whom exploited slaves while in the middle east, is such a judicial nightmare. What do you do with a legally Aus…

> Or Iranian and Iraqi imams and mullahs selling children, girls, but apparently even including the occasional boy, into child prostitution, functioning as pimps and exploiters Let's not forget the same happens in the US including by the political elite

Obviously the scale of the problem doesn't even compare. Oh, and it's actually illegal in the west, so the occasional perp gets punished.

Re: Woman in Brazil enslaved for 55 years by 3 generations of the same family

#270

Post by argentinian »

59percentmore wrote: post #267
argentinian wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Inequality increases the pool of wealth with which "haves" may bid up the prices of commodities, real property, and services. And they do, effectively increasing demand. Transitively, inequality drives inflation, i.e., local conditions. Impossible if there's competition between producers and it's at world scale. > What if some people are just bad at doing things for themselves? Tyrannies begin with those kind of id…

>Impossible if there's competition between producers and it's at world scale. That's a goalpost move if I've ever seen it. Maybe a No True Scotsman fallacy, too. Geography confers varying conditions at world scale. Hence, "local" is the window. And producers create cartels unless regulated; wealth accrues to itself, capital returns more than labor. Piketty. >Tyrannies begin with those kind of ideas. You can't see me…

Then regulate cartelization. That's a government function, if it doesn't work don't blame capitalism, blame governments.

Pretending to know better than other people what that other people should choose our want - and imposing it - is tyrannical.

Post reply on HN