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German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

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Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#261

Post by mothballed »

machinekob wrote: post #126

This is only for citizen not refugees/immigrants so both MEA and NA folks can chill.

Yes the US has a more insidious "hidden" law that I'm amazed Trump has not used to his advantage. It's a felony for the younger illegal immigrants males who are eligible to not register for the draft (most visa and legally visa exempt tourists are exempt, but the exemption falls off if you fall out of status). Almost none of them do, meaning almost all undocumented military-age-males are actively committing a serious crime.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#262

Post by nick486 »

ben_w wrote: post #103
bagels wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess this is a new word basically meaning conscription by force. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busification

> conscription by force Is there any unforced conscription? By definition conscription is compulsory.

its a question of degree. going to the barracks when you get called up by mail vs getting grabbed off the street, punched in the face and shoved into a bus headed for the training center.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#263

Post by HappyPanacea »

oreally wrote: post #233
DiscourseFan wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree but in countries with larger populations, there are two reasons: 1) Women can have children, and after a major war a large section of the population may be killed, and its better to have more women than men, since you can repopulate faster. 2) Women take over a large share of industrial labor during wartime. This was a mistake the Germans made in WW2, because they were so mystified by Nazism. But in the US, w…

I'm in a country ~5mil population (less than israel's) where men are conscripted and there is a fair amount of angst regarding their sacrifice. IMO, the cause is a mix of patriarchy and voteshare. Factor #2 is no longer true, nowadays more and more stuff is being produced by machines. Moreover women can pick up guns. Drones can be piloted. Lethality is only going to go up. No one sane would want to go fight in a war…

Finland?

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#264

Post by mikkupikku »

gertop wrote: post #156
mikkupikku wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Most of the opposition to women in the army comes from conservatives, not from feminists. They imagine themselves injured in the trenches in need of being carried by a fellow soldier, and they conclude that women are too weak.

If a woman wants to join the army, that's great, let her and let her do the job she's best at. Even combat, I fully believe that some women can excel with unequaled merit.

I'm talking about conscription. The state grabbing women who want nothing to do with war and forcing them into the army. That's what happens to men. They say it's necessary, I guess they're probably right in various contrived scenarios, but historically it has very often not been necessary and a lot of good men were murdered by politicians for no good reason. I don't know how to fix this problem, but why would you ever advocate for deliberately dragging more women into it?

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#265

Post by ck45 »

itsyonas wrote: post #199
ck45 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's a reason that is politically and not against one's conscience? I assumed that one's political beliefs would also manifest in conscience. The cold war has been over for a very long time. The whole process was reformed in 1984 by removing the mandatory oral hearing. Sources say that acceptance rate was above 90% after 1995. That's not good enough (should be 100%), but not terrible either.

> What's a reason that is politically and not against one's conscience? I assumed that one's political beliefs would also manifest in conscience. For example, I don't think it's in my interest to defend or die for the German state. However, I would use violence to protect my life if someone tried to kill me or threatened my life directly. The German state would interpret this as a political objection rather than a co…

Thanks for clarifying! I did some own research and apparaently in those oral hearings, objectors were often tricked into contradicting themselves with quite absurd scenarios.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#266

Post by throw-the-towel »

gmadsen wrote: post #259
eesmith wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that factoid were at all important then the military should use grip strength to determine who to draft, not gender.

We already have data on one of those… Pragmatically, the main reason that has been true throughout all of history is that women are more valuable reproductively. A country can lose half its men in a war and still recover. The same is not true if it loses half its women.

However, with birth rates plummeting -- is this even true any more?

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#267

Post by suddenlybananas »

mothballed wrote: post #224
logicchains wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true. When France surrendered in WW2 most French men didn't have to fight or die (unless they were Jewish).

That was also true of much of the feudal or monarchist European wars in the centuries before WWI. In the near term before the "democratic" era around WWI wars war largely seen as wars of the aristocracy and armed forces. Merchants could usually ~freely come and go between countries at war and you could generally pass to a country you were at war with without common people seeing you as an enemy. Wars also tended to b…

Stop reading Curtis Yarvin's pseudo-history. Like 8 million people died in the Thirty Years War before modern democratic states, and there's plenty of other examples.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#268

Post by fabian2k »

rvnx wrote: post #253
tokai wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't post made up lies here.

https://defence-industry-space.ec.europa.eu/eu-defence-indus... There is a new military Schengen project to make troops and unified military documentation across whole EU. Obviously there will need to be a registry of personnel there, so these people can be prevented to leave. On the side you have SIS Schengen, where you can (already) have an active arrest warrant for desertion. Nothing indicates that European Union…

Nothing in there is anywhere close to the claim you made.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#269

Post by jadamson »

ck45 wrote: post #254
jadamson wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish we'd first fix women's rights and then extend their duties. "We'll get around to it when some arbitrary measure is met, we promise" This is the same thing you're criticising - using one injustice to justify another.

I don't have intentions to justify an injustice. I'm saying why should we try to make it even harder for a disadvantaged group? It does not help a single German man if women also have to comply to this law. Fixing women's rights on the other hand gives everybody the benefit of living in a society that is more fair. For me, that's a valuable goal.

You may claim not to have the intention, but materially, it's what you're doing.

Everyone doesn't get drafted at once. It stands to reason that drafting women would mean fewer men were needed.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#270

Post by SauntSolaire »

parchley wrote: post #198
agrishin wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you see, if men stay alive, but women are killed, society collapses eventually as not enough new people are born. It sucks being a man in this scenario, but it is what it is.

And if you include women (well, all genders) directly in the war efforts you double the amount of soldiers you have, which would increase your chance of winning and not needing to repopulate.

You can lose a war, yet still keep your country. You can also win a war, yet still need to repopulate.
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