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Coding agents could make free software matter again

gjlondon.com

261–270 of 351 posts

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#261
post #257

The point this article makes, that suddenly agents can do the work of customizing free software, completely makes sense. But, the reality is that the Free Software movement is opposed to the way Lemons are built today, and would not accept a world like this. (Rightfully!) My belief is that Lemons effectively kill open source in the long run, and generally speaking, people forget that Free Software is even a thing. Th…

wtf is lemon? can't you just write normally

He may be referring to market of lemons

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#262
post #179
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was made redundant recently "due to AI" (questionable) and it feels like my works in some way contributed to my redundancy where my works contributed to the profits made by these AI megacorps while I am left a victim. I think anyone here can understand and even share that feeling. And I agree with your "questionable" - its just the lame HR excuse du jour. My 2c: - AI megacorps aren't the only ones gaining, we all…

> AI megacorps aren't the only ones gaining, we all are. No, no we are not. > the leverage you have to build and ship today is higher than it was five years ago. I don’t want more “leverage to build and ship”, I want to live in a world where people aren’t so disconnected from reality and so lonely they have romantic relationships with a chat window; where they don’t turn off their brains and accept any wrong informat…

> literacy implies understanding

Agree. Do we not understand how LLMs work? Some of us understand better than others, just like literacy is also not guaranteed just because you learned the alphabet.

Accepting the output of an LLM is really materially not different from accepting books, newspapers, opinion makers, academics at face value. Maybe different only in speed of access?

> LLM generated code in the hands of someone who doesn’t read it is the opposite of literacy.

"A popsi article title or paper abstract/conclusion in the mind of someone who doesn't read is the opposite of literacy."

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#263
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was made redundant recently "due to AI" (questionable) and it feels like my works in some way contributed to my redundancy where my works contributed to the profits made by these AI megacorps while I am left a victim. I think anyone here can understand and even share that feeling. And I agree with your "questionable" - its just the lame HR excuse du jour. My 2c: - AI megacorps aren't the only ones gaining, we all…

> It feels like megacorps own the keys right now, but that’s a temporary. Remains to be seen. Hardware prices are increasing. Manufacturers are abandoning the consumer sector to serve the all consuming AI demands. Not to mention the constant attempts to lock down the computers so that we don't own them. What does the future hold for us? Unknown. It's not looking too good though. What good is hardware if we're priced…

The trend I see if older hardward beeing able to run models that are increasing miniturized.

The real (but not new) danger is us giving up to the idea that we cant do it ourselves or that we must use megacorp latest shiny toy for us to "succeed"

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#265

Having over a decade of open source software I've written freely available online, I actually really appreciate the value that AI && LLMs have provided me. The thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is the fact that my works were likely included in the training data and, if it doesn't violate my licenses (GNU 2/3), it certainly feels against the spirit of what I intended when distributing my works. I was made redu…

It shouldn't be needed. I would argue that is more than "against the spirit" and should not be considered fair use. Instead of creating a derivative work, they created a machine that creates derivative works.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#267
post #3

Free software has never mattered more. All the infrastructure that runs the whole AI-over-the-internet juggernaut is essentially all open source. Heck, even Claude Code would be far less useful without grep, diff, git, head, etc., etc., etc. And one can easily see a day where something like a local sort Claude Code talking to Open Weight and Open Source models is the core dev tool.

Why isnt LLM training itself open sourced? With all the compute in the world, something like Folding@home here would be killer

It's either illegal or extremely expensive to source quality training material.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#268
post #260
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically, the selling point of LLMs is that you no longer need to think about problems, you can skip directly to results. Anything that you have to think about while using them today is somewhere on the product roadmap, or will be. Many people think this is a form of utopia.

Just like computer is no longer a job description, yes.

[deleted]

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#269
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think there's no meaningful case by the letter of the law that use of training data that include GPL-licensed software in models that comprise the core component of modern LLMs doesn't obligate every producer of such models to make both the models and the software stack supporting them available under the same terms. Why do you think "fair use" doesn't apply in this case? The prior Bartz vs Anthropic ruling laid…

You sound like you're citing the general Internet understanding of "fair use", which seems to amount to "I can do whatever I like to any copyrighted content as long as maybe I mutilate it enough and shout 'FAIR USE!' loudly enough." On the real measures of "fair use", at least in the US: https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/four-factors/ I would contend that it absolutely face plants on all four measures. T…

"Real" fair use is perhaps one of the most nebulous legal concepts possible. I haven't dived deep into software, but a cursory look at how it "works (I use that term as loosely as possible)" in music with sampling and interpolation etc immediately reveals that there's just about nothing one can rely on in any logical sense.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there was going to be a case, it's derivative works. [1] What makes it all tricky for the courts is there's not a good way to really identify what part the generated code is a derivative of (except in maybe some extreme examples). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work

One could carefully calculate exactly how much a given document in the training set has influenced the LLM's weights involved in a particular response. However, that number would typically be very very very very small, making it hard to argue that the whole model is a derivative of that one individual document. Nevertheless, a similar approach might work if you took a FOSS project as a whole, e.g. "the model knows a…

> One could carefully calculate exactly how much a given document in the training set has influenced the LLM's weights involved in a particular response.

Not really.

Think of, for example, a movie like "who framed roger rabbit". It had intellectual property from all over. Had the studios not gotten the rights from each or any of those properties, they could have been sued for copyright infringement. It's not really a question of influence.

So yeah, while the LLM might have been trained on the kernel, it was also likely trained on code with commercial licenses. Conversely, because was trained on code with GPL licenses, that might mean commercial software with LLM contributions need to inherit the GPL to be legal (and a bunch of other licenses).

It's a big old quagmire and I think lawyers haven't caught up enough with how LLMs work to realize this.

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