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Coding agents could make free software matter again

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Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#251

Post by joshuacc »

davemp wrote: post #216
mr_toad wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Broadly speaking, GPL is a license that has specific provisions about creating derivative software from the licensed work, and just saying "fair use" doesn't exempt you from those provisions. Broadly speaking, yes it does. The whole point of fair use is that you don’t need a license.

Claiming LLMs are fair use is ridiculous bordering on ignorant or disingenuous. Here’s the 4 part test from 17 U.S.C. § 107: 1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; Fail. The use is to make trillions of dollars and be maximally disruptive. 2. the nature of the copyrighted work; Fail. In many cases at least, the copy writte…

These are factors to be considered, not pass/fail questions.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#252

Post by jamiemallers »

woeirua wrote: post #18

I’m not so sure… what I see as more likely is that coding agents will just strip parts from open source libraries to build bespoke applications for users. Users will be ecstatic because they get exactly what they want and they don’t have to worry about upstream supply chain attacks. Maintainers get screwed because no one contributes back to the main code base. In the end open source software becomes critical to the e…

[dead]

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#253

Post by cxr »

davemp wrote: post #216
mr_toad wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Broadly speaking, GPL is a license that has specific provisions about creating derivative software from the licensed work, and just saying "fair use" doesn't exempt you from those provisions. Broadly speaking, yes it does. The whole point of fair use is that you don’t need a license.

Claiming LLMs are fair use is ridiculous bordering on ignorant or disingenuous. Here’s the 4 part test from 17 U.S.C. § 107: 1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; Fail. The use is to make trillions of dollars and be maximally disruptive. 2. the nature of the copyrighted work; Fail. In many cases at least, the copy writte…

This comment highlights a basic dilemma about how and where to spend your time.

Here's a basic rule of thumb I recommend people apply when it comes to these sorts of long, contentious threads where you know that not every person showing up to the conversation is limiting themselves to commenting about things they understand and that involve some of the most tortured motivated reasoning about legal topics:

If the topic is copyright and someone who is speaking authoritatively has just used the words "copy written", then ignore them. Consider whether you need to be anywhere in the conversation at all, even as a purely passive observer. Think about all the things you can do instead of wasting your time here, where the stakes for participation are so low because nothing that is said here really matters. Go do something productive.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#254

Post by giancarlostoro »

59nadir wrote: post #148
giancarlostoro wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3. folks making low-effort contribution attempts using AI (PRs, security reports, etc). Meanwhile as people sleep on LLMs to help them audit their code for security holes, or even any security code auditing tools. Script kiddies don't care that you think AI isn't ready, they'll use AI models to scrape your website for security gaps. They'll use LLMs to figure out how to hack your employees and steal your data. We a…

This reads like a "You wouldn't download a car!" ad but it's trying to scare you into using AI instead.

More like, you're still using horses to move your product, meanwhile thieves and your competitors are using trucks to outpace you. A truck can get in the way of your horse carriage and then they can rob you easily and take all your cargo. Yes, you can still get your cargo from point A to point B, but you're going to be targeted by bad actors in vehicles.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#255

Post by rzmmm »

wolvesechoes wrote: post #181
est31 wrote: post #64

If I look around in the FLOSS communities, I see a lot of skepticism towards LLMs. The main concerns are: 1. they were trained on FLOSS repositories without consent of the authors, including GPL and AGPL repos 2. the best models are proprietary 3. folks making low-effort contribution attempts using AI (PRs, security reports, etc). I agree those are legitimate problems but LLMs are the new reality, they are not going…

> one can break monopolies open using LLMs Let me know when you succeed. > the GPL is only a means to an end And how this end is closer with LLMs?

LMMs can be used for example faster reverse engineering, to turn proprietary content into free.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#256

Post by 627467 »

heyethan wrote: post #193
627467 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was made redundant recently "due to AI" (questionable) and it feels like my works in some way contributed to my redundancy where my works contributed to the profits made by these AI megacorps while I am left a victim. I think anyone here can understand and even share that feeling. And I agree with your "questionable" - its just the lame HR excuse du jour. My 2c: - AI megacorps aren't the only ones gaining, we all…

[flagged]

Cheap books too hundreds of years to be accessible. Already we have models that run on "legacy" hardware. Just like large scale publishing never disappeared large scale models and infra also wont. But does it mean that simple paper and pen was pointless to be distributed?

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#257

Post by apgwoz »

The point this article makes, that suddenly agents can do the work of customizing free software, completely makes sense. But, the reality is that the Free Software movement is opposed to the way Lemons are built today, and would not accept a world like this. (Rightfully!)

My belief is that Lemons effectively kill open source in the long run, and generally speaking, people forget that Free Software is even a thing. The reasoning for that is simple: it’s too easy to produce a “clean” derivative with just the parts you need. Lemons do much better with a fully Lemoned codebase than they do with a hybrid. Incentives to “rewrite” also free people from “licensing burdens” while the law is fuzzy.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#258

Post by eru »

Tadpole9181 wrote: post #243
vova_hn2 wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the claim that they make is that once a model is "contaminated" with GPL code, every output it ever produces should be considered derived from GPL code, therefore GPL-licensed as well.

So GitHub and Windows and IDEs need to be open source because they can output FOSS code? That's obviously rediculous. If an AI outputs copyrighted code, that is a copyright violation. And if it does and a human uses it, then you are welcome to sue the human or LLM provider for that. But you don't get to sue people for perceived "latent" thought crimes.

It would be relatively easy to scan the output of the LLM for copyrighted material, before handing it to the user.

(I say 'relatively easy'. Not that it would be trivial.)

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#259

Post by qweqweqwe1 »

apgwoz wrote: post #257

The point this article makes, that suddenly agents can do the work of customizing free software, completely makes sense. But, the reality is that the Free Software movement is opposed to the way Lemons are built today, and would not accept a world like this. (Rightfully!) My belief is that Lemons effectively kill open source in the long run, and generally speaking, people forget that Free Software is even a thing. Th…

wtf is lemon? can't you just write normally

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#260

Post by eru »

ori_b wrote: post #249
ori_b wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say that like it's a thing. LLMs have the goal of replacing intellectual work with passive consumption. People seem to like that.

Basically, the selling point of LLMs is that you no longer need to think about problems, you can skip directly to results. Anything that you have to think about while using them today is somewhere on the product roadmap, or will be. Many people think this is a form of utopia.

Just like computer is no longer a job description, yes.
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