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Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

theguardian.com

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Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#261

Post by Marsymars »

1718627440 wrote: post #250
wongarsu wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Running a heater is easier the less efficient your engine is, because there's more waste heat to work with. ICEs have the clear advantage there

If the energy is used for something intended (e.g. hot air) than it is not inefficient.

That's not really the context of the comment though. The point is just that an EV turns ~80% of its fuel energy into motion (with the rest as heat) and an ICE turns about ~30% of its fuel energy into motion (with the rest as heat).

If you need heat, an EV needs to turn more of its fuel energy into heat, while an ICE can just repurpose what was otherwise being dumped.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#262

Post by Marsymars »

garyfirestorm wrote: post #151
M0r13n wrote: post #82

I've had a rough time with the last two EVs I've owned. I bought a Honda e in 2020 because of its retro-future charm, but ended up being disappointed by several things: - the range was miserable - the software quality was bad - no OTA updates ever (despite Honda's promises) - slow charging - poor public charging infrastructure in Germany I should have known that a 35 kW battery wouldn't deliver great range or chargin…

Inversely I leased a Fiat 500e for a year in Detroit Michigan and had no issues with range ~130 miles. I would plug it in nightly as I had a level 2 charger installed at my house. The experiment was quite successful. I just didn’t like front wheel drive on somedays with heavy snow. I used it for commuting to work, buying groceries and visiting friends nearby. It met my needs and I feel a slightly bigger car with 4 do…

I like the form factor of the 500e, but boy do I not trust Fiat.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#263

Post by whynotmaybe »

nslsm wrote: post #176
whynotmaybe wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody knows it won't fully replace it. It's impossible to go on a long off-road travel with the EV equivalent of 50L of gas in a jerrycan. But some are twisting the narrative to say that because of that reason EV will fail. Millions of people could use an EV in their daily life, just like I can go without a pickup in my daily life and rent one whenever I need one.

I’m not affluent enough to buy one car for my daily life and rent another for whenever I have to leave the city.

How often do you leave the city for more than 200km?

Each time I travel oversea, I take a "public transportation plane", not my private jet.

It's not because an EV doesn't fit for 100% of your requirements, that it doesn't fit for everyone.

No car fits for 100%.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#264

Post by Marsymars »

toast0 wrote: post #258
Gud wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work all over Europe and I’m not super impressed with the state of charging infrastructure in general and it seems particularly bad in German. One thing that’s super annoying and this is not specific to Germany, but why the fuck do I need some shitty app to use your charger? Should be tap and go like any other purchase. You know, like how I pay for my petrol? Seems to me like everyone wants to force an app down my…

> why the fuck do I need some shitty app to use your charger? I have PHEV that doesn't pull much from a charger, and I usually don't use chargers for money, but... When I charged for fun while I was shopping at a grocery store, it ended up being like a 70 cent charge. If you bill 70 cents to a credit card, it doesn't make sense. Tieing it to an app, you can either charge more and have me loan you the balance, or you…

It doesn't have to be an app to handle small transactions - different countries already have mechanisms in place to handle that - e.g. any credit card purchase under $5 gets a $1 surcharge, to avoid the surcharge you can tap with a debit card (with much lower transaction costs).

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#265

Post by breve »

kube-system wrote: post #97
a-saleh wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought Totyota is still one of the EV leaders. Alongside Kia and Hyundai?

Toyota’s leadership is staunchly anti-EV

Toyota sells EVs. They sell the bZ3, bZ4, bZ5, bZ7, bZ3X, bZ Woodland, C-HR+, Lexus RZ, Lexus ES, and soon the Hilux EV.

The Lexus ES: https://electrek.co/2026/03/19/lexus-launches-es-ev-with-300...

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#266

Post by 8note »

nslsm wrote: post #176
whynotmaybe wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody knows it won't fully replace it. It's impossible to go on a long off-road travel with the EV equivalent of 50L of gas in a jerrycan. But some are twisting the narrative to say that because of that reason EV will fail. Millions of people could use an EV in their daily life, just like I can go without a pickup in my daily life and rent one whenever I need one.

I’m not affluent enough to buy one car for my daily life and rent another for whenever I have to leave the city.

You could alternatively just rent a car or truck when you need one, and not one a car at all?

if you arent affluent, all the costs that come with car ownership are a bit excessive.

even still you might want to go for the cheap EV, and just not do things that require a pickup, rather than paying the costs of the pickup all the time

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#267

Post by Marsymars »

dimmke wrote: post #114
xp84 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GM has a ton of EV models and has been doing a ton of EV investment, R&D, etc. How can you say they’re somehow not EV enough? I think this article’s author is an absolutist and believes any company that doesn’t go 100% EV regardless of market demand is stupid. I think that’s irrational. And I love my EV. But it’s going to take 20 years or more for the entire country to even get to a place where all your suburbanites…

My home charger was like $500 ($300 with the credit I got from electric company) and install was like 250. No upgrade needed. I've also owned a house before that had old electricity - knob and tube (this was before I had an electric car) and paid less than 10k to get the entire electricity system upgraded to something modern. I dont think your 5k-10k thing is accurate for the vast majority of houses.

It gets tricky once the utility company has to hydrovac an upgraded supply line to your house. They've estimated $30-40k for me.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#269

Post by themafia »

Marsymars wrote: post #261
1718627440 wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the energy is used for something intended (e.g. hot air) than it is not inefficient.

That's not really the context of the comment though. The point is just that an EV turns ~80% of its fuel energy into motion (with the rest as heat) and an ICE turns about ~30% of its fuel energy into motion (with the rest as heat). If you need heat, an EV needs to turn more of its fuel energy into heat, while an ICE can just repurpose what was otherwise being dumped.

The second factor is your battery needs heat. So you may be forced to generate excess heat even if you aren't using it in the cabin.

The point being is that EV cars are a great idea, but the American auto market was not a good _general_ fit, and manufacturers didn't tailor their products enough to actually be successful. They really just pushed a bunch of product onto the market to capitalize on government subsidies.

Which, to me, is the real "risk." Manufacturer incompetence. That all being said my next car will probably be a hybrid.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#270

Post by twoodfin »

decimalenough wrote: post #245
izacus wrote: post #17

VAG group has EVs (and pretty good ones) across the board: VW with ID series, Škoda with Enyaq/Elroq/Epiq, Audi with eTron series (SUV, sedan and estate), SEAT with Cupra Born and others. BMW just launched Neue Klasse, with iX3 selling like hot cakesa nd i3 looking amazing, with i7 in pipeline. Mercedes also launched a great new platform with CLA which is coming to other sizes as well. Meanwhile, Renault 5 is selling…

I went to a car show in Australia last year. VAG was out in full force displaying all the models you mention... but so were the Chinese manufacturers, who were 25-50% cheaper across the board, for all models and all price points. VW ID.3 vs BYD Dolphin: https://www.bike-ev.com/reviews/byd-dolphin-vs-volkswagen-id... Audi Q4 e-tron vs Zeekr 7X: https://www.carsguide.com.au/audi/q4-e-tron/vs/zeekr-7x People will pay a…

Per that link, the BYD Dolphin is €30,000 and the VW ID.3 is €36,000. That’s a 20% premium.

For that, you get more range, faster charging, and better highway driving, even aside from the brand premium.

That doesn’t seem like a slam dunk to me, especially since the Chinese EV market is at the peak of deliberate over-production:

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/2025/11/china-elec...

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