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India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

reuters.com

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Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#261

Post by amarant »

gxs wrote: post #252
amarant wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? In Sweden we have digital ID and it's great! Super practical and I struggle to think of how it would be used to spy on citizens, given that it has the same legal protections as banks have regarding your account transactions etc. Like sure you could in theory see every document I've ever signed if you have a warrant for BankID servers, but you could probably glean most of that if you had a warrant for the bank…

That’s sort of how all this type of policy is pushed through Convenience - what you’re describing is convenience It’s totally fine if you prioritize that over everything else, but my only thought here is that everyone should be crystal clear in what they are trading off for convenience It’s convenient for the government too, tk have a single identifier to thread a persons entire life We are, sadly, well beyond any ex…

Again,I struggle to think of how it'd be used gather any data not already available.

Yes it's selling point is convenience. Convenience is good.

In this particular case I disagree that there's a price in privacy. At least currently, and the way the Swedish electronic ID is implemented, I don't see it.

With other variations there might be problems of course, though I'd worry more about someone messing up the security of it rather than privacy

Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#262

Post by energy123 »

djohnston wrote: post #26
rishabhaiover wrote: post #22

I'm shocked by people and state using the crutch of cyber crime or scams to push a totalitarian solution to a problem that is better solved by improved education and targeted campaigns against common security pitfalls. I abhor any decision that robs even a grain of my individual freedom.

I share your abhorrence but are you really shocked? "Think of the children", "Stop the terrorists," these have been the foundations for the erosion of personal liberty for the past thirty years.

I am unconvinced from a practical standpoint that this vision of the world that you wish to live in is even possible today due to the increase in sectarian communal tensions, dense cities, widely available cars/guns/etc and stresses from cost of living and income inequality, as well as the spread of ideas that mass casualty attacks might be a thing to do (the US did not have school attacks until it became an unfortunate "thing" in the culture that sick people glommed onto).

An absence of surveillance causes increased frequency of terrorist attacks which causes people to demand solutions (necessarily involving surveillance and other authoritarian measures) which leads to increased surveillance. It's an unfortunate negative feedback loop.

If you lack solutions for too long, the negative feedback loop becomes severe and instead of just surveillance within a liberal democratic context, you get public safety authoritarians like Bukele or Duterte.

"Surveillance doesn't materially reduce terrorist attacks" - I am not sure about that based on the number of arrests of plotters and the lack of visibility I have into the tools and methods they used to find those plotters.

"Terrorist attacks still happen even with surveillance" - Yes, but if they happen less frequently, this reduces the demand from the public to ratchet up authoritarianism. See the problem?

"Terrorist attacks are a price worth paying for our freedom." - I mostly agree, but feeling like this doesn't make any difference to the negative feedback loop, does it? Regular people want public safety from physical danger almost as much as food and water.

Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#263

Post by 0x5FC3 »

desi_ninja wrote: post #241
MonkeyClub wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm shocked India is currently run by a nationalist regime headed by the so called "butcher of Gujarat"[1], there isn't much that would shock me wrt to that lot's totalitarian tendencies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_image_of_Narendra_Modi

He has been the PM For last 11 years. Your so called labelling doesn't stand scrutiny. India is prospering, with problems, but prospering for every religion sect and culture

How does being in power erase the past?

Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#264

Post by bfg_9k »

satvikpendem wrote: post #219
dingnuts wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I shouldn't have to accept government surveillance just because 15% of the population is functionally illiterate. We should have support structures for those people as a society, but "dumb people exist" is a fucking horrible argument for why I should have my freedom restricted

You shouldn't, I agree with you, but what's the solution that works for everyone, not just the tech literate?

There doesn't need to be a solution that works for everyone. It doesn't matter how many barriers you put in place, people will always get scammed - so don't punish the other capable 85%.

Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#265

Post by bfg_9k »

DeepSeaTortoise wrote: post #204
psychoslave wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem iscontrolling people at intimate thought level. Sure education is part of it. But state controlled device tracking everything they say, where they go and who they are exchanging with is also a tool to leverage on in that perspective.

IMO the goal is a bit different. It'd be just way too much data to track people successfully, even with on-device filtering, especially because everyone with ill intentions would just use non-backdoored devices for their malicious activities. A much more achievable goal is digging up dirt on specific people and opponents. In the end governments can struggle to justify how they got their hands on info about an affair…

It's the old totalitarian playbook. Make everyone a criminal then selectively apply the law.

Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#266

Post by throwaway2037 »

phatfish wrote: post #229
lxgr wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lack of digital ID is a huge problem in many domains and enables a lot of scams and crime in the first place. Requiring identification in situations that don't need it is where the problems start, but that's possible with analog IDs as well, and is often even worse there (since these provide neither security against digital copies, nor privacy, which digital ID can, e.g. via zero knowledge proofs).

It's like people want to hand over scans of their passport and/or driving license to random businesses again and again, every time the need to prove who they are; and have their ID documents littered in Outlook mailboxes or company file shares with zero permissions. Or be forced to install yet another ID app from a private service that requires you have an iPhone or "compatible" Android. The debate about this in the…

Can anyone explain the history of "self ID" rules and laws in the UK? It seems like you do not have to prove your ID to the police. It is the reverse. As an outsider, I don't understand it.

Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#267

Post by throwaway2037 »

observationist wrote: post #207
brokenmachine wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"They're in charge, surely they must know what they're doing! They wouldn't lie to us! Literally nobody thinks that. Unfortunately most people don't have the time or energy to fight every emerging attack on freedom. Everything is going to plan for the billionaire class. Eventually everything will burn, only time will tell if it will be from global warming or food riots.

Most average people assume competence and good faith from people in charge. Most people don't question, aren't skeptical, and go through life in a fog. That's not most people here, but it's like Gell-Mann amnesia applied to politics. 99% of the time, when politicians put forth a plan to do things in a domain you're competent in, they look like morons. It's exceedingly rare for them to do things well. People trust ele…

Having lived in lower trust vs higher trust societies, you can see it in how people assume their leaders think. High trust places like Sweden, people have pretty high faith in their leaders to do the right thing. Personally, I much prefer quality of life in a higher trust society. It is exhausting needing to second guess everyone everywhere all the time!

Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#268

Post by est »

rishabhaiover wrote: post #22

I'm shocked by people and state using the crutch of cyber crime or scams to push a totalitarian solution to a problem that is better solved by improved education and targeted campaigns against common security pitfalls. I abhor any decision that robs even a grain of my individual freedom.

> solved by improved education

Now you have at least two problems

Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#269

Post by hshdhdhj4444 »

profsummergig wrote: post #210
MonkeyClub wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

And what about their traditions makes their religion not Hindu but makes the “Brahmanical Hindu” traditions Hindu?

The claim that there aren’t other religions is not true because a lot of lower caste folks have explicitly converted to Christianity and or Dalit Buddhism as promoted by Ambedkar who was the driving force behind rights for lower castes in India.

Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#270

Post by zug_zug »

amarant wrote: post #261
gxs wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s sort of how all this type of policy is pushed through Convenience - what you’re describing is convenience It’s totally fine if you prioritize that over everything else, but my only thought here is that everyone should be crystal clear in what they are trading off for convenience It’s convenient for the government too, tk have a single identifier to thread a persons entire life We are, sadly, well beyond any ex…

Again,I struggle to think of how it'd be used gather any data not already available. Yes it's selling point is convenience. Convenience is good. In this particular case I disagree that there's a price in privacy. At least currently, and the way the Swedish electronic ID is implemented, I don't see it. With other variations there might be problems of course, though I'd worry more about someone messing up the security…

I used to think like that. Now in my country we have a president who would use that to deport or target political opponents, track people who criticize Israel, etc.

You can never put the genie back in the bottle and you never know who will be in charge in 20 years

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