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The disguised return of EU Chat Control

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Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#261

Post by spwa4 »

pcrh wrote: post #123
karhuton wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

”2 There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right EXCEPT such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.” Are we r…

Mass surveillance has already been ruled to be in contravention of the Human Rights act: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_8_of_the_European_Conv... > A 2014 report to the UN General Assembly by the United Nations' top official for counter-terrorism and human rights condemned mass electronic surveillance as a clear violation of core privacy rights guaranteed by multiple treaties and conventions and makes a distin…

A decision by the European Court of Justice or any other court does not apply to any legislative branch like the EU commission (not parliament), when making new laws. New laws simply override old laws (to be interpreted as specializations, more or less exceptions, to the old laws)

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#262

Post by ThrowawayTestr »

andix wrote: post #237

I just don't believe they would be able to roll it out. A lot of messaging services won't implement chat control. If half of the messaging apps are getting blocked, people will get angry. There will be massive backlash towards EU. Texting is just so embedded to the daily life, if the EU causes inconveniences or trouble with texting, this might create massive anger. It could start off Brexit-like campaigns in some cou…

>A lot of messaging services won't implement chat control.

Why not?

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#263

Post by ThrowawayTestr »

pcrh wrote: post #145
HeinzStuckeIt wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That strain of libertarian rhetoric is overwhelmingly encountered on American-dominated fora. I won’t say it doesn’t exist in Europe, since Europeans can pick up on American internet culture, too, but it is too marginal in Europe to affect politics much. There is no significant libertarian party in the EU. Some of the far-right parties stoking and benefiting from popular discontent even promise to uphold the welfare…

Half of Europe has living memories of oppressive governments, from fascism in Franco's Spain to communism in East Europe.

Must be why they're so itching to get it back

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#264

Post by tock »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #99
tock wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as generally happens when such ideas are put into practice Is this true? Lots of countries with high living standards have high taxes. It doesn't need to solve every problem but it does help solve the problem of one unelected person holding too much power and influence. > What's plan B? Lower the threshold to a million dollars? 1B = 1000M. I think thats high enough. Don't see why you need to make it 1000x smaller t…

It doesn't need to solve every problem but it does help solve the problem of one unelected person holding too much power and influence. It does? Really? What are they teaching kids in school these days? According to the books I studied, nominally-egalitarian leaders racked up an eight-digit body count in the 20th century alone.

> It does? Really?

Yep.

> nominally-egalitarian leaders racked up an eight-digit body count in the 20th century alone

You don't believe in democracy and equal rights? Anyway billionaires love their 10 digits not 8.

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#265

Post by andix »

ThrowawayTestr wrote: post #262
andix wrote: post #237

I just don't believe they would be able to roll it out. A lot of messaging services won't implement chat control. If half of the messaging apps are getting blocked, people will get angry. There will be massive backlash towards EU. Texting is just so embedded to the daily life, if the EU causes inconveniences or trouble with texting, this might create massive anger. It could start off Brexit-like campaigns in some cou…

>A lot of messaging services won't implement chat control. Why not?

Signal already announced they won't add back doors, even if it means they are going to be blocked.

Which is really funny, because the EU commission recommends to their employees to use Signal for texting.

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#266

Post by demarq »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #238
rambojohnson wrote: post #228

the comment thread here is obnoxiously naive, and speaks to the privilege some people having been raised under the calm of supposedly democratic societies. you're all arguing about the syntax of rights while governments rewrite the grammar. once a state decides ubiquitous surveillance is necessary, it’ll find or fabricate a justification. the "law" doesn’t restrain power, power instructs law where to kneel. stop trea…

> once a state decides ubiquitous surveillance is necessary, it’ll find or fabricate a justification This is defeatist, fatalist nonsense.

You do realize the headline matches what you just quoted?

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#267

Post by [deleted] »

rambojohnson wrote: post #228

the comment thread here is obnoxiously naive, and speaks to the privilege some people having been raised under the calm of supposedly democratic societies. you're all arguing about the syntax of rights while governments rewrite the grammar. once a state decides ubiquitous surveillance is necessary, it’ll find or fabricate a justification. the "law" doesn’t restrain power, power instructs law where to kneel. stop trea…

[deleted]

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#268

Post by xethos »

anonym29 wrote: post #255
tomsmeding wrote: post #216

> According to Breyer, the existing voluntary system has already proven flawed, with German police reporting that roughly half of all flagged cases turn out to be irrelevant. A failure rate of only 50% is absurdly good for a system like this. If we have to: > Imagine your phone scanning every conversation with your partner, your daughter, your therapist, and leaking it just because the word ‘love’ or ‘meet’ appears s…

[flagged]

Standing on the street holding a bag open, and catching a fish falling from the sky one time, would also be an absurdly good catch rate no matter how long I had to wait - it's just that shit of a system

Only half the conversations being a waste of law enforcement's time is also an impressive rate - we all recognize that it's just a shite system that is bound to have a lot of false positives.

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#269

Post by Centigonal »

rambojohnson wrote: post #228

the comment thread here is obnoxiously naive, and speaks to the privilege some people having been raised under the calm of supposedly democratic societies. you're all arguing about the syntax of rights while governments rewrite the grammar. once a state decides ubiquitous surveillance is necessary, it’ll find or fabricate a justification. the "law" doesn’t restrain power, power instructs law where to kneel. stop trea…

Let's be pragmatic about this. Chat Control and this new thing are not post-hoc rationalizations, they are attempts to justify a proposed change.

If this posited wannabe-surveillance state wanted to institute ubiquitous surveillance, it would just unilaterally do so a la PRISM. To our knowledge, they have not done this and are instead trying to rationalize the creep of surveillance somehow, which indicates that public opinion around these initiatives still matters. Public opinion is something we can all influence. Maybe discussing the legalese is a waste of time, but discussing the rhetoric and how to combat it definitely isn't

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#270

Post by MarsIronPI »

pcrh wrote: post #53

The right to privacy is enshrined in the European Convention on Human Rights, article 8 [0]. It escapes me how politicians can repeatedly attempt to violate this. [0] https://fra.europa.eu/en/law-reference/european-convention-h...

And it's not just EU politicians who ignore their constitution. US politicians have been ignoring the US Constitution for oh (checks history books) at least 85 years.
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