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Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

cnbc.com

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Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#261

Post by magicalhippo »

55873445216111 wrote: post #259
motoboi wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, but those machines are built in Europe. Most in Netherlands to be exact, but Holand too.

Netherlands AND Holland? Isn't that the same place? Also: Even while ASML steppers are built in Netherlands, there are a lot of other non-photolithography tools needed to build a fab in addition to the ASML tools.

> Netherlands AND Holland? Isn't that the same place?

Holland is part of the Netherlands. Not unlike how say Texas is part of the United States.

So in that regard the statement was redundant, yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#262

Post by thenthenthen »

filloooo wrote: post #254
chrisco255 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In principle I'm against outsourcing or technology transfers to China, but please do it on you own schedule. In principle, the tit for tat policy with China should have been initiated 15 years ago. China has restricted its own markets in similar ways since at least that far back, and it was clear then, when they banned Google in 2010, that they were not playing by the same playbook as we were. The U.S. doesn't cont…

People like to play the victims, nobody else wanted to buy these unattractive companies back then, but once these companies are turned around or eventually fail, suddenly they are of national importance, we were ripped off. The Google Facebook examples probably would hold better if the US hadn't axed TikTok, also, Google isn't banned in China, they refused to comply with censorship regulations and left themselves. Ru…

Google did not even leave, they have a huge office tower in Beijing, Zhongguancun.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#263

Post by throw58753 »

chrisco255 wrote: post #197
h45gJaqk wrote: post #74

The timing is weird, just after Trump's latest escalation with China. Using The Netherlands to fall into the sword would fit with the general tactics of dumping the Ukraine war on the EU and trying to sour their relations with China. That way, the U.S. is free to control all oil resources in the Middle East and conquer new ones in Venezuela. The EU gets nothing but enemies and higher oil and gas prices. In principle…

> In principle I'm against outsourcing or technology transfers to China, but please do it on you own schedule. In principle, the tit for tat policy with China should have been initiated 15 years ago. China has restricted its own markets in similar ways since at least that far back, and it was clear then, when they banned Google in 2010, that they were not playing by the same playbook as we were. The U.S. doesn't cont…

One point to clear up, China did not ban Google. Google left China because they refused to comply with Chinese data sovereignty laws.

Google even tried to crawl back with a search engine that did comply with Chinese laws put activist employees forced them to stop.

Both Microsoft and Apple fully comply with Chinese laws and are doing really well there.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#264

Post by roughly »

itopaloglu83 wrote: post #133
Doxin wrote: post #5

Some more context from a dutch news source[0]: The ministry of economic affairs intervened out of a fear that crucial technological skills and capacities will leave the Netherlands and Europe. The ministry stated in a press release[1] that there was a threat of a "knowledge leak" (w/e that means exactly) and a possible threat to the European economy. After this intervention the Dutch government can now stop or revers…

Everybody is a fan of free access and capital markets, until a foreign entity purchases something of importance. It’s a continuation of recent trends and closing markets. Nobody in their sane mind would allow a company like ASML or the likes to be purchased by competitors. But the irony is that when a non-European entity were to do something like this, e.g. nationalize their oil or mining etc. industry or a firm, the…

It gets a lot less contradictory when you realize the principles are window dressing for the interests.

Early America had no regard for intellectual property rights because all the good media came from abroad - then we built Hollywood and saw the light. The west pushes deregulation and free trade because we've got the money and the only thing that can keep us from sucking a market dry is government intervention. The Dutch just seized a company because a geopolitical opponent was using it to exercise leverage, which is also how TikTok became a sub-brand of Oracle.

Nation states will use whatever words are necessary to justify their actions, but the game is and always has been power, leverage, and interest. Given the rise of China, I'm guessing we're going to get a lot more opportunities to tut and shake our heads about how hypocritical western governments turn out to be with regards to national economic interests.

(And, to be clear, I'm not saying this is like it's a good thing. I'm not a government, I'm a person, so all I get is the pointy end of all this happy rhetoric.)

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#265

Post by bigbadfeline »

corimaith wrote: post #100
bigbadfeline wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either way, it cannot be stopped, China will develop independent technology sector because they can and they have no other choice. They don't trust the West and cases like this make such attitude understandable. As soon as China tries to compete with the rich monopolies, the "free market" goes out of the window and becomes "free to do as we tell you".

>As soon as China tries to compete with the rich monopolies, the "free market" goes out of the window and becomes "free to do as we tell you". When China cannot compete with incumbents those protections also go up and when they can now people like you appeal to free trade (while ignoring existing protections). You are being overly charitable to one side here. Which is it? Free trade or Protectionism?

> can now people like you appeal to free trade

You're assuming too much and, along with others here, acting like you've been hurt. "Free trade" is the mantra of Western economists and politicians since the time of Adam Smith, and it's been a ruse since then too. Read him.

> When China cannot compete with incumbents those protections also go up.

They do, but not in the erratic manner, levels or timing we're observing here. China is a party of the WTO and they haven't broken any of its agreements, nor have they used any of its emergency clauses.

> You are being overly charitable to one side here. Which is it? Free trade or Protectionism?

It's not either/or. I can tell you a third option that is worse than both of these - it's jumping from one to the other and back in an erratic manner as we are doing it now.

I could tell you something that's better than all of these too but I won't do it. I've been talking about it for many years, primarily as an alternative to free trade and I'm amazed that at this time, nobody seems to be aware of it. Like, what's the point of pointing out obvious truths over and over again with the same (lack of) result.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#266

Post by barnabyjones »

I'm not seeing any mention of the Entity List ITT, which seems like the real reason. Via SCMP:

>Some analysts said the move by the Dutch ministry resulted from a new rule issued by the US Bureau of Industry and Security, the agency responsible for export control policies. The rule, effective September 29, imposed new restrictions on entities which are at least 50 per cent owned by enterprises on the Entity List or the Military End-User List – two blacklists issued by the US government.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#267

Post by Jensson »

hermitcrab wrote: post #176
trhway wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wondered how the large unified world of Roman Empire with running water and sewer fell apart (and backwards) into multitude of small feudal pieces with no technology to speak of for the 1000 years after Roman Empire. I think our modern civilization is probably at the beginning of similar process.

As I understand it, the Roman Empire was fuelled by expansion (stealing other people stuff), enabled by their exceptional military machine. Once they could not profitably expand any further, they were in trouble.

It lasted for many centuries after they ran out of stuff to conquer, so no.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#268

Post by [deleted] »

next_xibalba wrote: post #189
itopaloglu83 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody is a fan of free access and capital markets, until a foreign entity purchases something of importance. It’s a continuation of recent trends and closing markets. Nobody in their sane mind would allow a company like ASML or the likes to be purchased by competitors. But the irony is that when a non-European entity were to do something like this, e.g. nationalize their oil or mining etc. industry or a firm, the…

The Chinese heavily subsidize their companies and have large government bureaus that strategically guide industries over long time frames. For example, the CCP has been on a long, intentional path to destroying all international solar manufacturers via subsidies, dumping, etc. This is not how free markets function.

[deleted]

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#269

Post by markus_zhang »

fwipsy wrote: post #139
dragonelite wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has immense pressure on the dutch government, given their control over ASML . Its US big tech and semi design studios that determines who will need to buy EUV from ASML. Given ASML is not allowed to do business with China, Russia etc.

You could just add easily argue that the Dutch government has immense leverage over the US, since ASML controls the leading edge fab technology that underpins Nvidia etc. It seems more to me like a highly profitable partnership that neither side can credibly threaten to withdraw from.

Although without any proof, but the Cold War history convinces me that US usually has the better hands when dealing with EU. US has the bigger and better sticks.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#270

Post by WhyNotHugo »

Doxin wrote: post #5

Some more context from a dutch news source[0]: The ministry of economic affairs intervened out of a fear that crucial technological skills and capacities will leave the Netherlands and Europe. The ministry stated in a press release[1] that there was a threat of a "knowledge leak" (w/e that means exactly) and a possible threat to the European economy. After this intervention the Dutch government can now stop or revers…

The Goods Availability Act invoked in this case, grants power to requisition goods in case of emergency situations, and owners must be compensated.

What I don't see in the official announcement is the nature of the emergency in this case.

Ref: https://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0002098/2021-07-01/

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