Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

bluewin.ch

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 655 posts

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#261

Post by flextheruler »

darkmighty wrote: post #214
dkga wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Life is such a precious random occurrence that failing to protect it in the face [dementia|physical disabilities|etc] is the real tragedy.

It's not like life stops when someone (with a grave an irreversible condition that causes suffering) dies. It goes on with the young generations (i.e. the billions of them!). I think too much clinging to a single life causes the whole (which is more important) to suffer. That's not to say we shouldn't value and respect elders, but clinging to life excessively is ignorant and potentially cruel, in my humble opinion. I…

Ancient and immortal? So eternal return?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#262

Post by hrimfaxi »

bityard wrote: post #240
WA wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You could express your wishes about how you would like to be treated in advance, while you are still clear in the head. You can't express in advance that you want to have assisted suicide. Your former self might express wishes, but what if your later self doesn't feel like this anymore? In a way, we can all get the same feeling when doing another round of "lose weight this year" new year's resolutions just to reali…

Uh, new years resolutions are not exactly what I would call the ideal metaphor for assisted suicide. Plenty of people here who reacted negatively to OP's suggestion seem to not have had to deal with a loved one who dealt with Alzheimer's or other forms of dementia. It's not hard like taking care of a toddler is hard. It's hard like, "this is not the same person I know for my whole life, they don't recognize me, they…

> Plenty of people here who reacted negatively to OP's suggestion seem to not have had to deal with a loved one who dealt with Alzheimer's or other forms of dementia. It's not hard like taking care of a toddler is hard. It's hard like, "this is not the same person I know for my whole life, they don't recognize me, they say and do mean things to me and their grand-kids and neighbors all the time, and require 24x7 supervision to not hurt themselves or break everything in the room."

This is exactly it. It's like dealing with a curmudgeonly toddler with extreme agency and no self-awareness. The rest of your comment is so spot on or at least matches my experience. I'm sorry you had to go through it but you genuinely seem to have become stronger from it and I'm grateful you could share your experience with us.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#263

Post by jeremyjh »

hypeatei wrote: post #72
sarchertech wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inheritance.

So... something you're entitled to regardless of how they die? I don't see why, in this hypothetical, a person would spend energy encouraging assisted suicide when they'll get inheritance eventually anyway. Am I missing something?

A long, costly illness will consume the entire inheritance - at least in the US.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#264

Post by dbZJtFuAXUrVLmY »

bityard wrote: post #187
dbZJtFuAXUrVLmY wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment really bothers me. I am not put off by the idea that the memory of a person is worth protecting, what I am put off by is the suggestion that death is a good option here, or that death is better than having lived those 3 years of life. The idea that when someone loses the capacity to retain their reputation and dignity it would be better for them and others that they were dead and that they have nothing g…

> I am really pro assisted suicide as a way of shortening suffering You don't consider years of mental trauma on the individual and years burden and stress on loved ones to be suffering?

I don't think the average amount of suffering for people with Alzheimer's and their families is sufficient to warrant euthanasia as a solution. I don't doubt there are some cases where it could be warranted, but I find it very difficult to get behind the idea that consent should pass from the individual. I obviously see that people with Alzheimer's and their families do suffer, the degree to which depends on the availability of proper care. We're essentially debating whether euthanasia is a better option to high quality care, and that's where the life of a person becomes a pretty gross economic equation. High quality care deprives families of assets. That tension between selfish (or so called "practical") interests and prioritising the interests of the dying is non-trivial, particular where the dying can't reasonably consent. The gentleman mentioned in this scenario would have had a more dignified death had he been provided the correct facilities, and probably shouldn't have been left to run riot in the community. It pains me that this is a story about how some guy became an asshole in his final years and not one of how a guy was deprived of a dignified death by the structures of society. I suspect to some degree people see euthanasia as a simple way to offer compassion and dignity in death, but I do think it's highly informed by ableist prejudice. There is a wide spectrum of dignity and life left to live in an end of life pathway and jumping to euthanasia as the solution is a pretty dangerous one in my opinion.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#265

Post by jonhohle »

darkmighty wrote: post #214
dkga wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Life is such a precious random occurrence that failing to protect it in the face [dementia|physical disabilities|etc] is the real tragedy.

It's not like life stops when someone (with a grave an irreversible condition that causes suffering) dies. It goes on with the young generations (i.e. the billions of them!). I think too much clinging to a single life causes the whole (which is more important) to suffer. That's not to say we shouldn't value and respect elders, but clinging to life excessively is ignorant and potentially cruel, in my humble opinion. I…

The alternative being when someone becomes inconvenient to others we should encourage their death? What good is compassion or empathy when the lesser in society could just go off and die, right? Why stop at incurable diseases? Political opponents, coworkers, nasty service workers, double parkers, lawyers, and many other groups cause a lot of anguish and suffering.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#266

Post by ReptileMan »

ipaddr wrote: post #224
joelwilliamson wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’d be dead either way, the question is if having those three years were a net improvement to his life

3 years living vs dying is a 3 year net improvement on life. Such silly statement. By your logic we should kill everyone at their peak.

A beautiful woman dies twice as the old saying goes.

While what you say is extreme there is a point in the decline past which there is no point of living. If you have something worth living for - cling to life and to 107 if you like. But if the only thing that waits you is to slowly decay and fade and lose yourself - what is the point?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#267

Post by ratelimitsteve »

AQuantized wrote: post #92
lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

> You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you. This seems like such an absurd conclusion to this, as though the opinions of other people of you are what matter when you functionally lose your personhood and then die. Maybe a better focus would be that there often isn't a good way for a community to manage a person who suddenly becomes irrational because…

idk man whether the people I love hate me matters to me...

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#268

Post by fsloth »

lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

I agree alzheimers turns everything to shit in every meaning of the word.

I disagree it’s up to you to conclude it would have been better if he had been killed 3 years earlier (which you imply).

In general you don’t have the right to such a statement.

Now, if you were discussing _your own_ condition this would be a totally valid consideration IMHO. But you (almost) _never_ have the right to conclude from someone elses part when it’s their time to go.

Assisted suicide is a humane option but ”I hope he had died with some dignity years ago instead of pissing everyone off” tarnishes the entire concept and is exactly the type of argument which stops assisted suecide becoming a more widely accepted option.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#269

Post by pflenker »

WA wrote: post #177
pflenker wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could express your wishes about how you would like to be treated in advance, while you are still clear in the head. That’s already possible for other situations, like when you are braindead and entirely dependent on machines to keep you alive, with no chance of recovery.

> You could express your wishes about how you would like to be treated in advance, while you are still clear in the head. You can't express in advance that you want to have assisted suicide. Your former self might express wishes, but what if your later self doesn't feel like this anymore? In a way, we can all get the same feeling when doing another round of "lose weight this year" new year's resolutions just to reali…

The same argument would apply to any other kind of will or testament. You need to update it frequently. It’s not uncommon for people to change their mind quite late, and (at least in Germany) that’s perfectly possible even until late. If people dispute this later change of mind a judge needs to get involved, and being married to one I can tell you that they treat each case differently and with the appropriate care.

Arguably the best qualified person to decide what to do with Future You is Present You.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#270

Post by pflenker »

markus_zhang wrote: post #68
pflenker wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could express your wishes about how you would like to be treated in advance, while you are still clear in the head. That’s already possible for other situations, like when you are braindead and entirely dependent on machines to keep you alive, with no chance of recovery.

Even if you express this in a wish, but you probably don’t remember it when you are deep into this, how does it get executed? I’m curious about this, so does the court overrule the current you with the previous you? I get it’s easy with other diseases such as cancer, though.

Same as with other similar agreements. A doctor needs to declare your mental fitness. When in doubt, a court gets involved. As a rule of thumb, if you are able to understand enough to getter law involved you’re likely still mentally fit.
Post reply on HN