EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided • Hacker News Board

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#261

Post by varispeed » Wed, Sep 17, 2025, 6:06 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #197

varispeed wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a common derail - shifting from the substance to “watch your wording.” It’s a form of concern-trolling: pretending the problem is rhetoric while sidestepping the actual flaw. The numbers don’t change based on phrasing. Mass scanning at EU scale inevitably flags orders of magnitude more innocents than offenders. Saying “this isn’t about catching criminals” isn’t twisting words, it’s highlighting that the stated…

> That’s a common derail - shifting from the substance to “watch your wording.” You're acting like I'm trying to derail the argument. That is not the case. You are putting a lot of assumptions in your wording. This will not help you.

Classic gaslight: accuse me of twisting and ‘acting’ while you’re the one twisting. The wording isn’t the issue - the substance is. And you’ve avoided it entirely.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#262

Post by jeltz » Wed, Sep 17, 2025, 6:06 PM UTC

eagleal wrote: post #200

general1465 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is pointless exception. If chat control will pass, everything is vulnerable by design. Or how do you distinguish if WhatsApp is installed on a phone of Joe Nobody or or a phone of a politician? You won't, unless you have some list, which can be leaked and from "do not touch credentials" will turn "target these credentials"

The exception means legally, that category of people, can't be prosecuted even if incriminating stuff were collected through such channels. The next logical step, after a prosecutor or political push, would be for the Highest Order Courts of Member countries to invalidate evidence collected through such channels for those categories of people.

Nope, not in Sweden. Anything can be used as evidence here, even illegally obtained stuff.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#263

Post by Xelbair » Wed, Sep 17, 2025, 6:10 PM UTC

izacus wrote: post #155

Xelbair wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is at least 3rd time similar measure has been tried in EU parliament, form my memory.

And the fact that it didn't pass tells you something didn't it?

yeah, for now - it was always close. And they need to succeed only once.

the issue is that they try to push it despite citizen protests, and each time they try people just grow more fatigued.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#264

Post by amelius » Wed, Sep 17, 2025, 6:13 PM UTC

varispeed wrote: post #261

amelius wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s a common derail - shifting from the substance to “watch your wording.” You're acting like I'm trying to derail the argument. That is not the case. You are putting a lot of assumptions in your wording. This will not help you.

Classic gaslight: accuse me of twisting and ‘acting’ while you’re the one twisting. The wording isn’t the issue - the substance is. And you’ve avoided it entirely.

That's because literally everybody here agrees with the substance.

There is no discussion here other than how to best bring the point across to those who do not agree.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#265

Post by AAAAaccountAAAA » Wed, Sep 17, 2025, 6:14 PM UTC

topranks wrote: post #188

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #172

Whatever happens, at least Signal will not be complicit in this shit show. Will WhatsApp and IMessage bend the knee? I guess we will see.

I mean it’s not hard to predict. Inevitably they will as their parent companies won’t give up such a big market. How well a ban on signal would be enforced if they don’t comply would be interesting. I still feel like this will fail to come into effect like all the other times. But we gotta keep eyes on it.

I have understood that Whatsapp is not a terribly profitable product for Meta, so it is possible that it would just be withdrawn from Europe, instead of making expensive and controversial modifications.

iMessage is not really a thing in Europe. Apple phones are simply not popular enough here for it to be an useful feature. I guess Apple would just disable it for European users.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#266

Post by FirmwareBurner » Wed, Sep 17, 2025, 6:19 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #221

throw-the-towel wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Russian whose parents actually remember the USSR, I'm genuinely horrified by the Brezhnev vibes the EU's giving off.

As someone who lived in a country under the russian boot at some point and who remembers the USSR from direct experience, you probably have a lot of stuff to study up on. But be careful on what internet connection you do it.

Maybe you could also say why you think he's wrong instead of sending him to brush up on.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#267

Post by sandstrom » Wed, Sep 17, 2025, 6:29 PM UTC

littlecranky67 wrote: post #60

Can someone please explain to me how that law will prevent anything or anybody from encrypted messaging, if I can just whip up a website and use javascript plus websockets/webrtc to implement encrypted chat? Like, yes, you can prevent the FANANG from implementing it, but criminals will just use the secure one...

This is the part that I think most politicians simply don't understand.

I've been trying to argue this point with my government several times (some MPs even replied friendly, so they'd actually read it, but still don't understand or believe it).

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#268

Post by flumpcakes » Wed, Sep 17, 2025, 6:31 PM UTC

dns_snek wrote: post #257

flumpcakes wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, nonsense, bullshit, whatever you want to call it. Actual pedos will trivially bypass Chat Control by switching to a messaging service that doesn't enforce it, or even by sending encrypted ZIP files via any ordinary messaging service. Yep, and then the politicians will create laws that outlaw encrypting zip files without a backdoor etc. That's my point, there's no nefarious plot here, it's just dumb laws to so…

> That's my point, there's no nefarious plot here, it's just dumb laws to solve real problems. You don't know the plot any more than we do. Whether the current government is nefarious or not is quite irrelevant. Chat Control is a surveillance and censorship tool that we're being pinkie-promised will only be used "for good". In reality it is a tool which can be repurposed for domestic oppression, political persecution…

Sovereign governments already hold the ultimate power in society. By your reasoning any and all laws are an attack on your liberty.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#269

Post by maybelsyrup » Wed, Sep 17, 2025, 6:33 PM UTC

hopelite wrote: post #153

codeptualize wrote: post #26

One interesting line in the proposal: > Detection will not apply to accounts used by the State for national security purposes, maintaining law and order or military purposes; If it's all very safe and accurate, why is this exception necessary? Doesn't this say either that it's not secure, or that there is a likely hood that there will be false positives that will be reviewed? If they have it all figured out, this exc…

[flagged]

> and ethnic self-determination

Didn’t know where this was going but I’m glad you told us

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#270

Post by throw-the-towel » Wed, Sep 17, 2025, 7:21 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #221

throw-the-towel wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Russian whose parents actually remember the USSR, I'm genuinely horrified by the Brezhnev vibes the EU's giving off.

As someone who lived in a country under the russian boot at some point and who remembers the USSR from direct experience, you probably have a lot of stuff to study up on. But be careful on what internet connection you do it.

Direct experience of the USSR, in the Netherlands? I must be in the wrong timeline because mine certainly didn't have the Dutch Soviet Socialist Republic!

Anyway, it's cute that you chose to respond with a personal attack on me. Looks like you don't have any other argument, and you know it :)