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EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

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Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#181

Post by topranks »

codeptualize wrote: post #26

One interesting line in the proposal: > Detection will not apply to accounts used by the State for national security purposes, maintaining law and order or military purposes; If it's all very safe and accurate, why is this exception necessary? Doesn't this say either that it's not secure, or that there is a likely hood that there will be false positives that will be reviewed? If they have it all figured out, this exc…

If you read it closely they are not mandating backdoors in encryption.

WhatsApp could still have messages end-to-end encrypted. What they would be mandated to do is for the app to send copies of the messages to WhatsApp for their staff to review the contents.

This obviously breaks the point of end-to-end encryption. Without actually making it illegal for them to use encryption, or add any “backdoor” so it can be reversed.

It’s a weasely way of trying to have their cake and eat it.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#182

Post by oaiey »

Longhanks wrote: post #4

This chat control topic is undemocratic, allegedly illegal in many jurisdictions (such as Germany), yet, keeps coming up ever and ever again, and the politicians face no consequences whatsoever. Endeavour like these make people vote for extremists, distrust the EU and democracies, or just give up on politics for good. These EU politicians endangering freedom, justice and democracy must be held accountable, with the m…

Politician can not face consequences when they discuss something illegal. Politicians in parlaments literal job is to define legal and illegal. That they repeat that until success and against the perceived will of the general population is maybe a procedural problem (as in: do not disturb the legal body with stupid stuff) but it is still their job.

I 100% agree with your position. Chat control is basically an attack on every conversation everywhere because modern social habits are using it like my chat with my neighbors over the fence. It is not the same as mail interception it is much worse.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#183

Post by gpm »

Ntrails wrote: post #166
bondarchuk wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parliamentary democracy just fundamentally has a weakness when it comes to single-issue voting. After picking a party to vote on based on housing, economic policy, crime, ..., how much voting power so to say is left for.. which guy the party says they'll send to the european commission? And what that guy's stance on chat-control is? If they're even publicizing that...

> how much voting power so to say is left for.. which guy the party says they'll send to the european commission? Short of a direct (referendum based) democracy how do you resolve that?

In principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy is an interesting idea to address this sort of issue.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#184

Post by hsbauauvhabzb »

topranks wrote: post #181
codeptualize wrote: post #26

One interesting line in the proposal: > Detection will not apply to accounts used by the State for national security purposes, maintaining law and order or military purposes; If it's all very safe and accurate, why is this exception necessary? Doesn't this say either that it's not secure, or that there is a likely hood that there will be false positives that will be reviewed? If they have it all figured out, this exc…

If you read it closely they are not mandating backdoors in encryption. WhatsApp could still have messages end-to-end encrypted. What they would be mandated to do is for the app to send copies of the messages to WhatsApp for their staff to review the contents. This obviously breaks the point of end-to-end encryption. Without actually making it illegal for them to use encryption, or add any “backdoor” so it can be reve…

So… a backdoor?

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#185

Post by pixelpoet »

yohannparis wrote: post #55
gadders wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the EU way - "We will keep holding the vote until we get the result that we want."

And who runs the EU? The MEPs and members of the countries government. It's not like it's a different country imposing their way onto us. Talk/contacts your ministers and MEPs if you want your voice to be represented.

I did send hand-written mails to several German representatives, and this is how I was rewarded.

Obviously I'm not expecting that my actions alone are enough to get the outcome I want, but it's difficult not to feel the bite of "if voting changed anything, they would make it illegal." It's just going to be some other paid-for dickface in corporate pockets, every time.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#186

Post by topranks »

littlecranky67 wrote: post #60

Can someone please explain to me how that law will prevent anything or anybody from encrypted messaging, if I can just whip up a website and use javascript plus websockets/webrtc to implement encrypted chat? Like, yes, you can prevent the FANANG from implementing it, but criminals will just use the secure one...

It won’t.

It makes no attempt to outlaw encryption. We can still legally use PGP and completely avoid eavesdropping.

What it does mandate is that messaging providers who they will name (think WhatsApp, Signal), will be obliged to have people reviewing the content of all messages sent.

All but the stupidest of criminals will thus work around it, encrypting themselves over the top. While the average Joe gets all their messages read.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#187

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

hsbauauvhabzb wrote: post #184
topranks wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read it closely they are not mandating backdoors in encryption. WhatsApp could still have messages end-to-end encrypted. What they would be mandated to do is for the app to send copies of the messages to WhatsApp for their staff to review the contents. This obviously breaks the point of end-to-end encryption. Without actually making it illegal for them to use encryption, or add any “backdoor” so it can be reve…

So… a backdoor?

Not a backdoor, but a built-in snitch.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#188

Post by topranks »

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #172

Whatever happens, at least Signal will not be complicit in this shit show. Will WhatsApp and IMessage bend the knee? I guess we will see.

I mean it’s not hard to predict. Inevitably they will as their parent companies won’t give up such a big market.

How well a ban on signal would be enforced if they don’t comply would be interesting.

I still feel like this will fail to come into effect like all the other times. But we gotta keep eyes on it.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#189

Post by varispeed »

amelius wrote: post #143
varispeed wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this isn't about catching criminals.

For _you_ it isn't. If you want to be heard in a heated debate, choose your words wisely.

That’s a common derail - shifting from the substance to “watch your wording.” It’s a form of concern-trolling: pretending the problem is rhetoric while sidestepping the actual flaw.

The numbers don’t change based on phrasing. Mass scanning at EU scale inevitably flags orders of magnitude more innocents than offenders. Saying “this isn’t about catching criminals” isn’t twisting words, it’s highlighting that the stated goal is statistically self-defeating.

The “catching criminals” line is deliberate gaslighting. It’s crafted to reassure people who don’t understand how these systems work, while the real function is mass surveillance of everyone.

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