Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'? • Hacker News Board

Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

#261

Post by pyman » Fri, Jun 06, 2025, 8:29 PM UTC

davidgerard wrote: post #256

pyman wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no evidence for that. It's very easy to write in a blog post "they told me" or "an engineer said". Why don't they contact the Head of AI, Craig Saunders (ex-Director of Amazon AI), and ask him directly. This was never done, which raises serious doubts about the credibility of the person who wrote it. We need to stick to the facts, especially now that pseudo-journalists are flooding the web with fake news. Let…

Literally a news story where they spoke to the engineers. Verdict: stop shilling.

The CEO and CFO committed fraud. That has been proven and there is no doubt about it.

But you are not going after them. You are accusing the Head of AI of lying. This is someone who spent seven years at Amazon, led the AI department, and is well known and respected in the community. You are also ignoring all the information posted on the company's blog, site, linkedin, and social media.

Do you really expect me, or anyone in the AI/ML space, to believe a blogger who doesn't know the difference between AI and GenAI? No chance. We do not take it lightly when a blogger tries to damage the reputation of someone who has earned the respect of the industry just for clicks or ad revenue.

I'm more interested in the truth than in ruining people's careers.

Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

#262

Post by redeyedtreefrog » Fri, Jun 06, 2025, 9:02 PM UTC

pyman wrote: post #260

redeyedtreefrog wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a former employee from a few years ago. I didn't stay very long at all though. In 2019 its former Chief Business Officer sued them for fraud, claiming that apps were built by Indian developers despite the claim that it was "80%" done by AI. There were detailed articles in the Wall Street Journal and The Verge at the time. I've found one reference saying it was settled out of court (the Telegraph), though I thoug…

Thanks for sharing this inside information. It's really helpful and gives me (and others researching this case) a better understanding of what was happening behind closed doors. I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind: 1. I checked on LinkedIn and saw that most employees are based in India. Is that correct? 2. From what I understand, customers knew their apps were being built by developers, and they could use…

My inside information is both outdated and minimal, I was there for a short time a few years ago.

As far as I know all the development work on client projects was done by developers in India. I was too far removed from the details to know quite how they were employed and paid - I literally never had any interaction with them - but I suspect this is the main source of the LinkedIn employees.

As far as I know customers were aware apps were being built by human developers, the "80% by AI" was prominent on the website and the sign up process but it was never claimed the whole thing was automated.

It looks like Craig Saunders joined only a year ago, in June 2024, which is long after I left. Given how much AI has advanced over the last few years, and given his LinkedIn shows he previously held a senior AI role at Amazon, I wouldn't be remotely surprised if he and other employees built some impressive tech demos over the last year or two.

Regarding Natasha assigning developers to projects, I don't know to what extent it was really automated, I wasn't involved in that.

Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

#263

Post by pyman » Fri, Jun 06, 2025, 9:26 PM UTC

redeyedtreefrog wrote: post #262

pyman wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing this inside information. It's really helpful and gives me (and others researching this case) a better understanding of what was happening behind closed doors. I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind: 1. I checked on LinkedIn and saw that most employees are based in India. Is that correct? 2. From what I understand, customers knew their apps were being built by developers, and they could use…

My inside information is both outdated and minimal, I was there for a short time a few years ago. As far as I know all the development work on client projects was done by developers in India. I was too far removed from the details to know quite how they were employed and paid - I literally never had any interaction with them - but I suspect this is the main source of the LinkedIn employees. As far as I know customers…

Thanks for clarifying that.

Here's the thing. The website doesn't say that 80% of the code was created using AI. That's what the fake article claims. What the site actually says is:

---

Natasha is your AI product manager.

Using machine learning algorithms, she recommends the features you need, based on the type of app you're building.

Natasha also creates an instant prototype for you, helping visualise your idea.

80% of this information is gathered automatically.

---

A few things to point out:

1. The site says it uses algorithms, not GenAI, to make recommendations and create a prototype. I assume that means some visual mockups or images of the suggested features.

2. It says it creates "80% of the information", not 80% of the code. That line is clearly referring to the recommendations, not the final software.

People spreading fake news scanned the site, misunderstood how AI works, and twisted the wording to fit their own narrative.

Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

#264

Post by redeyedtreefrog » Fri, Jun 06, 2025, 9:37 PM UTC

pyman wrote: post #263

redeyedtreefrog wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My inside information is both outdated and minimal, I was there for a short time a few years ago. As far as I know all the development work on client projects was done by developers in India. I was too far removed from the details to know quite how they were employed and paid - I literally never had any interaction with them - but I suspect this is the main source of the LinkedIn employees. As far as I know customers…

Thanks for clarifying that. Here's the thing. The website doesn't say that 80% of the code was created using AI. That's what the fake article claims. What the site actually says is: --- Natasha is your AI product manager. Using machine learning algorithms, she recommends the features you need, based on the type of app you're building. Natasha also creates an instant prototype for you, helping visualise your idea. 80%…

If you scroll down it also says 60% of the code is automated. Both percentages are essentially meaningless. If you require customers to type all their requirements into a static web based form does that also count as 80% automated information gathering? If 60% of an application is templated components does that mean code generation is 60% automated?

It's meaningless, and I suspect intentionally so. It clearly implies that they were doing things in a more advanced way than a standard Indian outsourcing firm, an implication heightened by hiring people to build impressive tech demos. But the impressive tech demos and the work on real client projects were two entirely separate things.

Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

#265

Post by pyman » Fri, Jun 06, 2025, 9:58 PM UTC

redeyedtreefrog wrote: post #264

pyman wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for clarifying that. Here's the thing. The website doesn't say that 80% of the code was created using AI. That's what the fake article claims. What the site actually says is: --- Natasha is your AI product manager. Using machine learning algorithms, she recommends the features you need, based on the type of app you're building. Natasha also creates an instant prototype for you, helping visualise your idea. 80%…

If you scroll down it also says 60% of the code is automated. Both percentages are essentially meaningless. If you require customers to type all their requirements into a static web based form does that also count as 80% automated information gathering? If 60% of an application is templated components does that mean code generation is 60% automated? It's meaningless, and I suspect intentionally so. It clearly implies…

I agree, it's confusing. It looks like marketing was throwing numbers around without really explaining what they meant.

Automation is definitely not AI. Maybe the 60% referred to reusable code, or a theme, or a template that was handed off to the developers?

Either way, 60% feels like a random number.

Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

#266

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Fri, Jun 06, 2025, 10:04 PM UTC

pyman wrote: post #254

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The following is from a link given by nikcub 12 days ago ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44080640 ): Engineer.ai says its “human-assisted AI” allows anyone to create a mobile app by clicking through a menu on its website. Users can then choose existing apps similar to their idea, such as Uber’s or Facebook’s. Then Engineer.ai creates the app largely automatically, it says, making the process cheaper and quicke…

Here we go again. We're amplifying accusations from pseudo blogs with little credibility, and spreading rumours in a forum where most of us are AI/ML engineers, researchers, founders, and university professors. We should know better. I read their site and blog, and they have a lot of screenshots of their internal apps. It can't be fake! One of them shows templates of well known sites. Based on what I read, you choose…

To clarify, are you saying that the quotes the WSJ publshed, attributed to the founder, are "fake news"?

Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

#267

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 06, 2025, 10:09 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #258

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The following is from a link given by nikcub 12 days ago ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44080640 ): Engineer.ai says its “human-assisted AI” allows anyone to create a mobile app by clicking through a menu on its website. Users can then choose existing apps similar to their idea, such as Uber’s or Facebook’s. Then Engineer.ai creates the app largely automatically, it says, making the process cheaper and quicke…

I called it lurid because it's sensational and yes, because of the implicit slur. (Not the most precise use of the word lurid because it lacks the ghastly/uncanny quality - https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=lurid , but I couldn't think of a better one.)

[deleted]

Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

#268

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Fri, Jun 06, 2025, 10:10 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #258

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The following is from a link given by nikcub 12 days ago ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44080640 ): Engineer.ai says its “human-assisted AI” allows anyone to create a mobile app by clicking through a menu on its website. Users can then choose existing apps similar to their idea, such as Uber’s or Facebook’s. Then Engineer.ai creates the app largely automatically, it says, making the process cheaper and quicke…

I called it lurid because it's sensational and yes, because of the implicit slur. (Not the most precise use of the word lurid because it lacks the ghastly/uncanny quality - https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=lurid , but I couldn't think of a better one.)

Thanks, I thought that might be it (re "lurid"). How about "vulgar"? Ah, too archaic maybe?

Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

#269

Post by pyman » Fri, Jun 06, 2025, 10:15 PM UTC

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #252

pyman wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand where you're coming from, but we need to stick to the facts. If there are no court cases, we can't imply that fraud was committed. We don't know what kind of agreements were in place, why the money was being transferred, or what the expectations were on both sides. We also don't know what was discussed in private. For example, it could have been something like: "We want to be part of this investment oppo…

They admitted themselves to this fraud. Try reading the article you are posting under: > Less than two months ago, Builder.ai admitted to revising down core sales numbers and engaging auditors to inspect its financials for the past two years. This came amidst concerns from former employees who suggested sales performance had been inflated during prior investor briefings. It doesn't get more textbook fraud than lying…

Yes, round-tripping is considered fraud in business. The CEO and CFO committed fraud. That has been proven, and there is no doubt about it.

But the article also claims they misled investors about the technology they were using, and that part is false. It even mocked Indian developers for working as programmers and pretending to be machines, which is obviously absurd.

Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

#270

Post by pyman » Sat, Jun 07, 2025, 8:57 AM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #266

pyman wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we go again. We're amplifying accusations from pseudo blogs with little credibility, and spreading rumours in a forum where most of us are AI/ML engineers, researchers, founders, and university professors. We should know better. I read their site and blog, and they have a lot of screenshots of their internal apps. It can't be fake! One of them shows templates of well known sites. Based on what I read, you choose…

To clarify, are you saying that the quotes the WSJ publshed, attributed to the founder, are "fake news"?

The founder was named UK Entrepreneur of the Year in 2024 by Ernst & Young, a company that also has a strong focus on AI research (some of my students work there). They do proper research before giving out an award.

Going back to your question:

You're quoting articles from 2019. Do you realise how quickly technology and startups evolve in a single year, let alone 6?

We can't assume nothing has changed since then, especially when there's plenty of evidence that the company grew 10x after the 2019 article was published.

Check on LinkedIn (if you have premium), the company went from 200 employees to 1000, and brought in directors from Microsoft and Amazon, people who are well known in the AI/ML space for their contributions to AI and virtual assistant development.

The biggest mistake the company made, without question, was the lack of transparency around sales figures. That's on the CEO and CFO, who committed fraud.

But now it feels like we're shifting the blame toward the AI engineers, the people who worked hard to build the internal tools the company was promoting. From what I've seen, those engineers built some great apps. If the CFO and the accountants were cooking the books, that's not their fault.

We should support the engineers and hold the founders and accountants responsible, instead of letting a blogger spread misinformation and claim that former directors from Amazon and Microsoft knew nothing about AI and faked the tech, which is clearly fake news.