Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why are so many people here pretending fraud is ambiguous? Saying "We will have great batteries 10 years from now" is not fraud. It's your belief about the future. Everyone knows no one can predict the future. Saying "this hydrogen powered truck works, here is a video of it running on the road right now" but the video is edited so you don't see that it's going down hill and the car isn't actually running" that's frau…
BuilderAI never actually told customers that development was done using AI, that's something people made up after the company went bust. If you look at their website (builder.ai), they explain that their virtual assistant "Natasha" assigns a developer, and then uses face recognition to verify the identity of the developer. Take a minute to visit their site and get informed. We live in a time where people form opinion…
Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?
251–260 of 283 posts
Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?
#252Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is not a completely different story. The lender yanked back the money they lent because they found out about fraudulent sales numbers. That led to the bankruptcy. It was still the people whose money was in the game who brought the company down in both scenarios because fraud is a big red line for anyone whose money is on the line
I understand where you're coming from, but we need to stick to the facts. If there are no court cases, we can't imply that fraud was committed. We don't know what kind of agreements were in place, why the money was being transferred, or what the expectations were on both sides. We also don't know what was discussed in private. For example, it could have been something like: "We want to be part of this investment oppo…
> Less than two months ago, Builder.ai admitted to revising down core sales numbers and engaging auditors to inspect its financials for the past two years. This came amidst concerns from former employees who suggested sales performance had been inflated during prior investor briefings.
It doesn't get more textbook fraud than lying to investors about how many sales you've recorded
Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?
#253Two claims are being made here, one boring and one lurid. The boring claim is that the company inflated its sales through a round-tripping scheme: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-05-30/builder-a... ( https://archive.ph/1oyOw ). That's consistent with other recent reporting (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44080640 ) The lurid claim is that the company's AI product was actually "Indians pretendi…
This ad for Builder directly claims "Natasha" - the secret sauce that Builder hoped to sell to Microsoft - is an "AI": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D36ZmJRYGK8 Engineers in the dev office say that's false and "Natasha" was a running joke in the office: https://techfundingnews.com/fake-it-till-you-unicorn-builder...
Why don't they contact the Head of AI, Craig Saunders (ex-Director of Amazon AI), and ask him directly. This was never done, which raises serious doubts about the credibility of the person who wrote it.
We need to stick to the facts, especially now that pseudo-journalists are flooding the web with fake news.
Let's keep this site reliable, please.
I read their site and blog, and they have a lot of screenshots of their internal apps.
Here's the dashboard where you choose an app: https://www.builder.ai/images/Choose.jpg
And here's the project progress dashboard showing how long it takes to build. In this case, it's 7 months. Clearly, there's no GenAI involved if it takes that long:
https://www.builder.ai/images/builder-studio-project-progres...
They also show in the menu things like "Releases" and "Meet the squad" (I'm assuming the devs). It can't be fake! One of them shows templates of well known sites. Based on what I read, you choose a template, Natasha or something else handles the assembly, which I assume is just a fancy way of saying it checks out a repo and installs dependencies. Then the Indian programmers do the rest. This is clearly explained on their website.
Take a look at their blog. There's plenty of information about their apps, which were reviewed by Microsoft before they invested 250 million.
Verdict: FAKE NEWS
Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?
#254Two claims are being made here, one boring and one lurid. The boring claim is that the company inflated its sales through a round-tripping scheme: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-05-30/builder-a... ( https://archive.ph/1oyOw ). That's consistent with other recent reporting (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44080640 ) The lurid claim is that the company's AI product was actually "Indians pretendi…
The following is from a link given by nikcub 12 days ago ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44080640 ): Engineer.ai says its “human-assisted AI” allows anyone to create a mobile app by clicking through a menu on its website. Users can then choose existing apps similar to their idea, such as Uber’s or Facebook’s. Then Engineer.ai creates the app largely automatically, it says, making the process cheaper and quicke…
I read their site and blog, and they have a lot of screenshots of their internal apps. It can't be fake! One of them shows templates of well known sites. Based on what I read, you choose a template, Natasha or something else handles the assembly, which I assume is just a fancy way of saying it checks out a repo and installs dependencies. Then the Indian programmers do the rest. This is clearly explained on their website.
Guys, take a look at their blog or website. There's plenty of information about their apps, which were reviewed by Microsoft before they invested 250 million.
Here's the dashboard where you choose an app: https://www.builder.ai/images/Choose.jpg
And here's the project progress dashboard showing how long it takes to build. In this case, it's 7 months. Clearly, there’s no GenAI involved if it takes that long:
https://www.builder.ai/images/builder-studio-project-progres...
Indian programmers and mathematicians are incredibly talented. In fact, an Indian programmer invented the first Transformer, which led to the rise of GenAI. The world chess champion is also from India. So let's stop mocking them. Companies like Google, Microsoft, Apple, Infosys and BuilderAI employ thousands of Indian programmers who are in the top one percent.
The founder of BuilderAI is also from India and was named Entrepreneur of the Year by Ernst & Young in 2024. He hired directors from Microsoft and Amazon. The Head of AI was a former AI Director at Amazon.
You need to stick to the facts. Their website looks legitimate and makes no mention of GenAI.
Verdict: FAKE NEWS
(Note: Indian devs are amazing)
Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?
#255Two claims are being made here, one boring and one lurid. The boring claim is that the company inflated its sales through a round-tripping scheme: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-05-30/builder-a... ( https://archive.ph/1oyOw ). That's consistent with other recent reporting (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44080640 ) The lurid claim is that the company's AI product was actually "Indians pretendi…
In 2019 its former Chief Business Officer sued them for fraud, claiming that apps were built by Indian developers despite the claim that it was "80%" done by AI. There were detailed articles in the Wall Street Journal and The Verge at the time. I've found one reference saying it was settled out of court (the Telegraph), though I thought I'd previously read the case was dismissed.
When I was there 3 years later:
- the company had been renamed from Engineer.ai to Builder.ai
- the marketing materials still heavily pushed the claim that apps were 80% built by AI, curiously the exact same figure as it had been 3 years earlier
- there was a bunch of automation around small parts of the software development process. When customers went to create a new project there was an AI chatbot assistant (Natasha), which amongst other things asked the customer for their requirements, and created some estimates for how long things would take. There was also some automation for turning UI mockups into CSS styles and then merging the styles with templated React components. These various small bits of automation did have teams of real engineers working on it in the UK and the US. However, by and large it didn't really work. It seemed to me that the Indian outsourced programmers working on client projects totally ignored this technology anyway, and just went about their jobs as though it didn't exist. Despite being employed to work on this tech, I never had any interaction with the Indian developers building real client projects.
- a new team was spun up to use Generative AI to create frontend mock ups of an application from template components. This was integrated into the flow when potential clients were chatting with the Natasha AI chatbot. Some people worked genuinely hard on this project, and to some extent it did function. However, it didn't do much beyond the many other "create a frontend mockup from a single prompt" projects out there, other than having access to the company's internal React component templates. As far as I'm aware these frontend mockups were never used by the Indian developers who built the final projects.
In the tech world there is a very wide blurred zone between "outright fraud, which leads to a conviction in court" and "exagerrated claims". Given the extent to which Builder.ai committed literal fraud with their revenue figures and accounting, and given the hundreds of millions of dollars they raised on very limited real sales, I believe their claims about AI could plausibly also be literal fraud. However, the standards of a court case are much higher than my personal use of the word "fraud". I'm tempted to believe Musk is also bordering on fraud with e.g. the Boring Company, or his repeated claims about how close Tesla is to fully automated self-driving robo taxis. But given Tesla is building a genuine product with genuinely high sales and revenue, and given how much other crazy stuff Musk does that makes these exagerrated claims pale in comparison, it's not something that's ever going to lead to a court case.
Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?
#256Earlier quoted context omitted.
This ad for Builder directly claims "Natasha" - the secret sauce that Builder hoped to sell to Microsoft - is an "AI": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D36ZmJRYGK8 Engineers in the dev office say that's false and "Natasha" was a running joke in the office: https://techfundingnews.com/fake-it-till-you-unicorn-builder...
There's no evidence for that. It's very easy to write in a blog post "they told me" or "an engineer said". Why don't they contact the Head of AI, Craig Saunders (ex-Director of Amazon AI), and ask him directly. This was never done, which raises serious doubts about the credibility of the person who wrote it. We need to stick to the facts, especially now that pseudo-journalists are flooding the web with fake news. Let…
Verdict: stop shilling.
Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?
#257Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are personal testimonials in the indiandevelopers subreddit from quite a while ago, if those are to be believed.
The news about BuilderAI using 700 devs instead of AI is false. Here's why. I've seen a lot of posts coming out of India claiming "we were the AI". So I looked into it to see if Builder AI was lying, or if this was just a case of unpaid developers from India spreading rumours after the company went bust. Here's what some of the devs are saying: > "We were the AI. They hired 700 of us to build the apps" Sounds shockin…
Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?
#258Two claims are being made here, one boring and one lurid. The boring claim is that the company inflated its sales through a round-tripping scheme: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-05-30/builder-a... ( https://archive.ph/1oyOw ). That's consistent with other recent reporting (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44080640 ) The lurid claim is that the company's AI product was actually "Indians pretendi…
The following is from a link given by nikcub 12 days ago ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44080640 ): Engineer.ai says its “human-assisted AI” allows anyone to create a mobile app by clicking through a menu on its website. Users can then choose existing apps similar to their idea, such as Uber’s or Facebook’s. Then Engineer.ai creates the app largely automatically, it says, making the process cheaper and quicke…
(Not the most precise use of the word lurid because it lacks the ghastly/uncanny quality - https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=lurid, but I couldn't think of a better one.)
Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?
#259Earlier quoted context omitted.
The news about BuilderAI using 700 devs instead of AI is false. Here's why. I've seen a lot of posts coming out of India claiming "we were the AI". So I looked into it to see if Builder AI was lying, or if this was just a case of unpaid developers from India spreading rumours after the company went bust. Here's what some of the devs are saying: > "We were the AI. They hired 700 of us to build the apps" Sounds shockin…
So "AI" in BuilderAI actually stand for "An Indian"?
The issue here is that many people think AI only means LLMs, Transformers, or GenAI. But AI has been around for decades and includes machine learning, deep learning, and neural networks.
So anyone using ML is free to register a .ai domain. There’s nothing wrong with that.
The problem would be if you told customers that your virtual assistant, in this case "Natasha", was creating the code instead of humans.
But that's not what happened here. The company went broke because it was reporting false sales figures.
Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?
#260Two claims are being made here, one boring and one lurid. The boring claim is that the company inflated its sales through a round-tripping scheme: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-05-30/builder-a... ( https://archive.ph/1oyOw ). That's consistent with other recent reporting (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44080640 ) The lurid claim is that the company's AI product was actually "Indians pretendi…
I am a former employee from a few years ago. I didn't stay very long at all though. In 2019 its former Chief Business Officer sued them for fraud, claiming that apps were built by Indian developers despite the claim that it was "80%" done by AI. There were detailed articles in the Wall Street Journal and The Verge at the time. I've found one reference saying it was settled out of court (the Telegraph), though I thoug…
I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind:
1. I checked on LinkedIn and saw that most employees are based in India. Is that correct?
2. From what I understand, customers knew their apps were being built by developers, and they could use an internal tool called Studio to track progress and view the names of the developers assigned to tasks. Is that accurate?
3. Did you work with Craig Saunders, the Head of AI? I heard he was attending events and demoing some internal apps he had built, and that people were pretty impressed. Do you know what exactly he was showing?
4. The builder.ai website never claimed to use GenAI, only AI, and it clearly says that their virtual assistant, Natasha, assigns developers to projects. Have you ever seen Natasha doing this in action?
Thanks again for speaking up and helping clear up some of the confusion.