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Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

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Re: Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

#261

Post by troupo »

fellowniusmonk wrote: post #176
yoavm wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google would have to make TONS of hostile moves for that fact to change I think the biggest issue with IE6 was not the hostile moves Microosft did, it is that it didn't do anything. The browser was just frozen. That's why it was relatively easy for Firefox to take a marketshare. Frankly, with some of the APIs Google are adding to Chrome, I'd rather they'd do a little less.

That and browser sniffing to serve intentionally broken CSS on Microsoft's websites to competitors like Opera, I remember this because it directly effected me at the time. I mean at least we still have websites like this from over 20 years ago that still document the bullshit, people who weren't there CANNOT fathom the how despicable they were. https://www.wiumlie.no/2003/2/msn/

Google is quite similar. Here's former CEO of Mozilla talking about it: https://archive.is/2019.04.15-165942/https://twitter.com/joh...

Re: Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

#263

Post by troupo »

Devasta wrote: post #211

As an example of how perfidious some of the discussions on web standards are, on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_browser_engines In teeny tiny font near the bottom: "Given the market-share dominance of Blink-based browsers,[4] if Google chooses to not support a standard, like JPEG XL,[30][31] it will not become relevant on the Web.[30][31] Such standards are not listed in these tables." So if C…

You can see it here, too. And in all discussions around PWAs. And on sites like whatcanwebdotoday. Anything Chrome ships is considered crucial, critical, and standard. And other browsers are shit because they don't immediately implement everything Chrome implements

Re: Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

#264

Post by troupo »

wseqyrku wrote: post #15
MBCook wrote: post #11

Yes. If it works on Chrome, no one cares or even tests for other things. If there is a JS feature in Chrome they want to use, so it’s impossible to use other browsers (instead of looking wrong) people do it. Performs fine in Chrome? Ship it. Yes, Chrome is the new IE in that it’s the only browsers companies care about, just like IE was for a very long time. Everything has to be Chrome compatible to succeed. That’s th…

> If it works on Chrome, no one cares or even tests for other things. We've been through an extensive standardization pass for this to not happen. Anything not matching the specification whether in Chrome or any other browser should be considered a bug. This is not at all the same as IE, where it just went its own way.

What about half-assed specifications that Chrome throws over the wall, ships them, and advertises them as standard everywhere, including web.dev? Even though their status is "not on any standards track"?

Re: Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

#265

Post by doctorpangloss »

dangus wrote: post #254
doctorpangloss wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple purposefully does not support immersive WebXR in Mobile Safari. If it did 8th Wall wouldn't exist. Mobile Safari would regularly break WASM. Like iOS 10.1 and 10.2 just broke it for no good reason. It had a broken WebGL 2 implementation for a long time. This hobbled Unity games. The compressed textures support for WebGL was also broken for a long time. The lowest latency WebRTC codecs that Stadia and Xbox Cloud…

I wouldn't say I'm defending Apple so much as I'm defending the idea that it might not just be making these technical decisions/iterations entirely based on the most cynical possible interpretation of the situation. For all we know WebXR immersive just isn't ready yet, just like WebXR wasn't ready for VisionOS 1 and shipped in VisionOS 2, which also makes sense considering that Apple's VR/AR business is years behind…

It was all on purpose. Maybe they haven’t been sued and discovery hasn’t turned up the specific email needed to convince you.

Re: Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

#266

Post by fooker »

curtis3389 wrote: post #6

Mobile Safari is the new IE. Random idiosyncrasies that are poorly documented dictated by the whims of a single corporation. Apple has broken stuff multiple times in the past few years.

Apple doesn't have an incentive to make mobile web better.

If they do, many apps would just be websites outside their walled garden.

Re: Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

#267

Post by troupo »

crowcroft wrote: post #97

Yes, Chrome is the de facto standard, and often the only browser thoroughly tested against. Even now though it isn't as dominant as IE at its peak though. No, Chrome isn't significantly behind on adopting new standards compared with other major browsers (I'm looking at you Safari). IE6 to IE7 was about five years!

Which standards is Safari significantly behind on?

Note: you have to refrain from listing Chrome-only non-standards. You also have to refrain from listing standards that Chrome shipped years before actual APIs got standardized.

Re: Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

#268

Post by soperj »

fellowniusmonk wrote: post #96

No not even close by every single possible measure. I was there, I suffered through it, Google would have to make TONS of hostile moves for that fact to change. I have no interest in the arguments of a closed source subscription service that wants me to switch to the bundled browser of the wealthiest company on earth's most popular consumer OS, lecturing me about using the 4th wealthiest company on earth's browser th…

Can you actually now? Or is Chromium still webkit under the hood because Apple?

Re: Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

#269

Post by Thiez »

alganet wrote: post #235
kccqzy wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VDOM would still exist if the DOM was faster. It's a different abstraction that reconciles the differences between the simple data->elements flow and the inherently stateful DOM. If you don't understand why VDOM exists, here's a nice experiment: in your next web app stop using VDOM and always set innerHTML. You'll find that (1) it's actually fast enough so you can conclude that VDOM doesn't exist just to patch over D…

Let's ask the next why. Why make the interaction with the DOM stateless? Because walking the tree sucks, and more specifically building upon the tree sucks a lot (createElement, appendChild, etc). That's why innerHTML, which was _not_ a standard, became a standard after being widely implemented and used. So, the solution was to almost never read the actual tree, because it is slow and weird. This was solved before Re…

> Remember when we parsed JSON with libs written in JS?

No, when was that? Because it was always possible to `eval(jsonString)` and get the parsed result. Indeed, that was the whole point.

Re: Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

#270

Post by pjmlp »

onion2k wrote: post #156
pjmlp wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It definitely is, I was also there, just like everyone was doing IE only sites, not only plenty of people do the same with ChromeOS vision of the Web, they ship Chrome alongside Electron crap. Safari is the last man standing before a ChromeOS world.

Safari is the last man standing before a ChromeOS world. Except it isn't. Maybe I'm being slightly obtuse here, but the world is not "Chrome Vs Safari". It's "Chrome Vs Safari Vs native apps". If Safari dies we'll be in a world of "Chrome Vs native apps", and that is what Apple wants. Browsers represent a way to deliver software to users that's outside of Apple's revenue mechanisms. Apple have every incentive to keep…

Chrome won't die when it already owns 80% of the browser market.

And if it is bluntness that you want, native apps should wipe both of them, lets get back to the days of Internet protocols and leave browsers for documents, nothing else.

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