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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#261

Post by zem »

maco wrote: post #108
kcunning wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh. I have a blog post about that as well! Basically, some women do really believe in 'traditional' roles for women. Maybe they've benefited from the current situation. Maybe it's part of their upbringing. If that's why they're making the comment, feel free to call them out on it. If they're doing it to be ironic (I know I have), then you can probably shrug it off. Many of us have learned to be subversively snarky t…

I like to non-verbally snark, by breaking people's brains. I wear long skirts all the time, and sometimes I cover my hair. So I must be traditionalist/conservative, right? No, I just don't like how jeans are all about objectifying my butt and also never fit right. Some of my coverings keep my hair nicely off the back of my neck in the summer, others let me have pretty flowy fabric (I like textiles). I'm pretty clearl…

a lot of female sf fandom is into knitting, crochet and the like too. i wouldn't even blink if i saw you at an sf con, and by extension i probably wouldn't be surprised at a dev event either (rightly or wrongly i tend to assume a fair amount of overlap among the two groups)

Re: "Lighten up"

#262

Post by dmor »

j_baker wrote: post #233
yelsgib wrote: post #148

I find posts like this extremely frustrating. Yes, I feel sorry for this woman. However, I also feel sorry for all male programmers. A lot of male programmers I've met have extremely pent-up sexual drives. A lot of them do not feel comfortable with women or society. The prototypical male programmer was extremely nerdy in adolescence, had minimal interaction with women, and sex life - forget it. Now they are working i…

What makes you think Jeffrey Dahmer was a happy, mentally-healthy, well-adjusted human being? Where's the compassion for him?

A serial killer

Re: "Lighten up"

#263

Post by yelsgib »

j_baker wrote: post #233
yelsgib wrote: post #148

I find posts like this extremely frustrating. Yes, I feel sorry for this woman. However, I also feel sorry for all male programmers. A lot of male programmers I've met have extremely pent-up sexual drives. A lot of them do not feel comfortable with women or society. The prototypical male programmer was extremely nerdy in adolescence, had minimal interaction with women, and sex life - forget it. Now they are working i…

What makes you think Jeffrey Dahmer was a happy, mentally-healthy, well-adjusted human being? Where's the compassion for him?

I have great compassion for Jeffrey Dahmer.

And do you realize that you just compared making an awkward joke to killing loads of people?

Re: "Lighten up"

#264

Post by sangfroid »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #134

I applaud the author for sharing her feelings. I also note that she does not speak for all women. All we can do is share our own experiences. I've been through many of these discussions: sexism, racism, ageism, and so on. After receiving many a rhetorical punch in the nose, I have a simple rule: I don't do it, I don't approve of it being done, if I am in management I stop it. I also don't let people yank me around by…

I'm one of the women who don't share her feelings. Maybe it's the word sexism that I have a problem with.

I'm not a programmer and I don't know the specific environment that she described, but I'm a female motorcyclist and I've worked in lots of kitchens and a couple in molecular biology labs. I know the behavior and I've dealt with it. Men behave in curious ways when there's a low female/male ratio, but in my experience, half of it comes out of awkwardness or plain old stupidity on the other side. Some of the more honest comments on this thread testify to that.

The other half is intended to belittle. But seriously, this isn't just at work. This is walking down the street in the city. This is buying something in the store. This is sitting on the bus. And as much as it sucks, getting offended doesn't help.

If this sounds like a long winded "lighten up," please think of it more as a friendly "toughen up." It's the only way to signal the change that you want.

Re: "Lighten up"

#265

Post by daenz »

hythloday wrote: post #215
daenz wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, the real reason I'm "white-knighting" is because I think it's shitty to make people feel uncomfortable for who they are. I don't think you get it. Your "white-knighting" on the internet does so little for the cause you're claiming to be fighting for that it begs the assumption of an ulterior motive. That motive does not have to be "getting sexual favors." It can also be, hey, looking really great and noble and…

Assuming by villainized you mean down-voted, pretty much every grey comment in this thread is by a man making the assumption that their experience of the world is women's experience. That's just not true; claiming so is not "rationality"--it's literally the definition of bias.

> That's just not true; claiming so is not "rationality"--it's literally the definition of bias.

There is no person without bias. Just being a different person is a bias. It's ridiculous to exclude opinions based on the existence of any bias.

> Assuming by villainized you mean down-voted

No. I mean the twisting of words. The very comment I was replying to implicated me as "sexist asshole." There's some vitriol in this thread.

Re: "Lighten up"

#266

Post by InclinedPlane »

daenz wrote: post #250
DanBC wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Schindler's List" would have made a lousy movie if he just told people to "Hang in There".

And who says he never did do that? You think he never came across people who were too risky to try to save? Why wasn't he able to save all the jews? My point was that it's pretty far fetched for anyone to believe InclinedPlane would risk his life saving slaves when he won't even risk his career trying to legally torpedo the original poster's workplace. It's posturing, nothing more.

"Why wasn't he able to save all the jews?"

Because all of the other Germans who didn't agree with what was happening just accepted it and went along.

Are we done here?

Re: "Lighten up"

#267

Post by erikpukinskis »

seanc722 wrote: post #175
Tichy wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to believe that low cut dresses are the only possible solution here.

Erm.. Why does it have to be a low cut dress. I see plenty of light dresses that would be suitable for professional situations that wouldnt bring out these comments. Men should be allowed o have there shirts unbuttoned down to their chest because their chests are hot from all the hair?

I see plenty of light dresses that would be suitable for professional situations that wouldnt bring out these comments

I think you might not be fully aware of the extent of body-related comments that women get. I know women with breasts of such a size that they ALWAYS get comments, regardless of what they're wearing.

Re: "Lighten up"

#268

Post by mindstab »

crusso wrote: post #13

@kcunning - How do you contrast your desire to have a perfectly professional relationship with everyone you work with vs a desire to enjoy an office environment where you can joke around and have fun? While I understand your answer may well be, "Leave the jokes at home, Mr. Colbert. I'm here to code and make a paycheck." I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humor…

This is bullshit. There is a big wide area between joking around and sexism and unwanted flirting etc.

Guys like you are all like "it's just fun and we tease all the time" right up until another dude in the work force hits on you or makes a sex related comment about you, and then you freeze up, get awkward and generally hate it.

How would you feel if one of your male coworkers tried this stuff with you?

And do not even try to say its different because women are supposed to like men or something like that, it's 10 kinds of wrong. just don't.

Re: "Lighten up"

#269

Post by rosser »

Jabbles wrote: post #235
hythloday wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we should be censuring someone who is brave enough to acknowledge their sexism. I also think you're misreading the post, which didn't say that it was "reasonable"...it said it was "cool". Crucial difference.

I hope that my criticism helps. I think "I can imagine myself saying" implies he thought it was "reasonable".

I think "I can imagine myself saying" implies he thought it was "reasonable".

No, it doesn't.

I can imagine myself saying all kinds patently disturbing and offensive things — things which, to a certainty, are not remotely "reasonable" — but I would never actually say, let alone mean, them.

By analogy, I can imagine pulling my Leatherman out of its sheath and sticking the blade between someone's ribs. Doesn't mean it's reasonable, or that I'd ever do it, especially not in jest.

Re: "Lighten up"

#270

Post by dbecker »

estel wrote: post #176
Tichy wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to believe that low cut dresses are the only possible solution here.

Does it matter? It can still be the complete account of someone's reasoning for wearing particular clothing.

This is about to get massively downvoted... but oh well.

Of course it matters!

Would you say it's "complete account of my reasoning" if I wore t-shirts to work because they are comfortable?

But I wear a dress shirt and tie because my company is trying to project just that type of stuffy image. The tie is uncomfortable... but that's life.

The breast-comment in this story wasn't the appropriate way to tell her if she was dressing unprofessionally... but most of us sacrifice comfort to dress professionally every day we go to work.

Are you suggesting that she is an exception, and she should wear whatever is most comfortable?

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