Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts • Hacker News Board

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#261

Post by ad404b8a372f2b9 » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 9:03 AM UTC

scaramanga wrote: post #167

personjerry wrote: post #12

> Porto’s police have increased patrols to drug-plagued neighborhoods. But given existing laws, there’s only so much they can do. On a recent afternoon, an emaciated man in striped pants sleeping in front of a state-funded drug-use center awoke to a patrol of four officers. He sat up, then defiantly began assembling his crack pipe. Officers walked on, shaking their heads. What were they supposed to in a different cou…

Yeah gosh, like, wow, you can't arrest someone without a jolly good reason... I can see the sad-faces all around, as journo's at the Oligarch's Daily Tribue lament that human rights are completely out of control now that cops can't roust people and smack them around for the crime of making their own personal choices, harming nobody. "B..b..but what about property values?!"

I genuinely can't tell what you are saying.

I don't know if you are mocking people who speak like this and satirising their beliefs that drugs are harmless, or if you genuinely speak like this and are mocking the people who wish to criminalize drugs.

Anyway, it's just more evidence for my campaign to criminalize sarcasm and get its users rousted and smacked by police.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#262

Post by KaiserPro » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 9:05 AM UTC

vsviridov wrote: post #227

andrewstuart wrote: post #221

You can’t just decriminalize owning drugs, you have to legalize selling drugs. That’s how you get rid of the criminals in the system. And selling drugs should not be a fabulous glamorous advertised social endevour like marijuana in the USA. Drugs should be sold like tobacco in Australia…. behind the counter, zero advertising, zero branding.

Except people start reselling legal drugs to the jurisdiction where they remain illegal... For this to work out as intended it would have to be planet-wide.

a few things:

1) illegal drugs are still illegal, just like now.

2) the quality of the illegal drugs rise significantly if sourced from reliable, regulated manufactures

3) the "blood" cost of production drops precipitously

4) the end user cost drops as well.

Now without support, those addicted will still flounder. However they won't need to do as much crime to fund it (much better for society, worse for the individual)

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#263

Post by Gareth321 » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 9:06 AM UTC

Cupprum wrote: post #241

m463 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same sort of thing happened with mental illness in california, probably a leading cause of homelessness problems. Years ago, the law was changed to allow mentally-ill but benign or even non-ill people to escape the "snake pits", mental institutions that kept people incarcerated and drugged. This allowed lots of people to recover. But then Ronald Reagan (as governor of california) cut state mental illness funding. Now…

But then the question is why is there more mentally ill people than in other countries. I know that many homeless people come there from other states because of the easy winters, but then i would assume something similar in europe as well. Spain has many homeless people as well, but there is fewer of them.

There are the same number of mentally unwell people. Mental illness typically follows normal distributions sans PTSD in war torn countries. The difference is the approach. Most European countries use a carrot and stick approach. There are no laws guaranteeing the homeless the right to live on the sidewalk, as there is in California. They can be fined or arrested here in Denmark for doing that. Ditto for begging. So they don’t congregate in large numbers in cities and there are no tents. Further, drug possession and distribution is prosecuted. The penalties are scary enough for the hard drugs to discourage broad use.

That’s the stick. The carrot is a generous welfare system which isn’t afraid of invasive intervention. Those deemed a danger to others or themselves can be detained for treatment. Involuntary commitment has virtually disappeared in many US states. Mental health treatment is also free, so there isn’t a barrier to access (though lately it has become harder to access treatment which isn’t considered acute).

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#264

Post by KaiserPro » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 9:06 AM UTC

personjerry wrote: post #12

> Porto’s police have increased patrols to drug-plagued neighborhoods. But given existing laws, there’s only so much they can do. On a recent afternoon, an emaciated man in striped pants sleeping in front of a state-funded drug-use center awoke to a patrol of four officers. He sat up, then defiantly began assembling his crack pipe. Officers walked on, shaking their heads. What were they supposed to in a different cou…

you'd take him to hospital....

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#265

Post by dazc » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 9:07 AM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #257

dazc wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opposite of this is the UK where you can go to a festival and have any drugs you bought tested to make sure they are genuine and then handed back to you, no questions asked. Obviously, the solution is somewhere between these two extremes. The softer end seems to be loosing though.

The opposite of what? The opposite of Singapore would be Portugal, the country we're discussing, not the UK.

Is Portugal actively promoting drug use?

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#266

Post by comfortabledoug » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 9:08 AM UTC

virgildotcodes wrote: post #7

Talk about burying the lede, 11 years ago they privatized their drug oversight operation and cut funding by over 80%. Gee, I wonder if that could have an impact? > After years of economic crisis, Portugal decentralized its drug oversight operation in 2012. A funding drop from 76 million euros ($82.7 million) to 16 million euros ($17.4 million) forced Portugal’s main institution to outsource work previously done by th…

What about the other quotes from the article that have nothing to do with funding...

> “When you first back off enforcement, there are not many people walking over the line that you’ve removed. And the public think it’s working really well,” said Keith Humphreys, former senior drug policy adviser in the Obama administration and a professor of psychiatry at Stanford University. “Then word gets out that there’s an open market, limits to penalties, and you start drawing in more drug users. Then you’ve got a more stable drug culture, and, frankly, it doesn’t look as good anymore.”

> Of two dozen street people who use drugs and were asked by The Post, not one said they’d ever appeared before one of Portugal’s Dissuasion Commissions, envisioned as conduits to funnel people with addiction into rehab.

And in Oregon...

> extremely few people are seeking voluntary rehabilitation. Meanwhile, overdoses this year in Portland, the state’s largest city, have surged 46 percent.

Why fund services that go unused?...Tent cities don't exist solely in places without access to housing, and giving an addict 4 walls and privacy is a death sentence.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#267

Post by wetpaws » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 9:15 AM UTC

throwawaylinux wrote: post #254

m463 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same sort of thing happened with mental illness in california, probably a leading cause of homelessness problems. Years ago, the law was changed to allow mentally-ill but benign or even non-ill people to escape the "snake pits", mental institutions that kept people incarcerated and drugged. This allowed lots of people to recover. But then Ronald Reagan (as governor of california) cut state mental illness funding. Now…

> But then Ronald Reagan (as governor of california) cut state mental illness funding. > Now clearly mentally ill people - who needed help - were turned away unless they were clearly "a danger to themselves and others". It's been 50 years between then and now, so... why has no other politician increased it if the funding cut was the problem?

[dead]

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#268

Post by martin8412 » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 9:15 AM UTC

Gareth321 wrote: post #263

Cupprum wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then the question is why is there more mentally ill people than in other countries. I know that many homeless people come there from other states because of the easy winters, but then i would assume something similar in europe as well. Spain has many homeless people as well, but there is fewer of them.

There are the same number of mentally unwell people. Mental illness typically follows normal distributions sans PTSD in war torn countries. The difference is the approach. Most European countries use a carrot and stick approach. There are no laws guaranteeing the homeless the right to live on the sidewalk, as there is in California. They can be fined or arrested here in Denmark for doing that. Ditto for begging. So t…

Eh, the ban on begging in Denmark and other Scandinavian countries is so they can throw out the professional beggars. Often called anti-Roma laws since they're one of the main perpetrators of this type of organized begging.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#269

Post by Gareth321 » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 9:19 AM UTC

slashdev wrote: post #76

cwkoss wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what is the effectiveness rate of forced rehab programs.

It’s very low, lower than regular rehab, which is already not that effective.

Which isn’t an argument against forced treatment because nominally, more people get treatment. To illustrate using made-up numbers:

Policy A: No forced treatment: 10% of addicts attempt treatment with a 10% success rate = 1% overall success rate.

Policy B: Forced treatment: 10% of addicts attempt treatment with a 10% success rate = 1% + 20% of addicts forced into treatment with a 5% success rate = 1% = 2% overall success rate.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#270

Post by Gareth321 » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 9:21 AM UTC

zuminator wrote: post #200

ndlan wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using in public.

The other day a woman passed gas on a crowded public light rail car and it personally offended me. What's more, an approximately six-year-old boy heard her and repeated the infraction, in other words it's indisputable her action influenced others to follow in her footsteps. I also happen to know that neither she nor the six-year-old are gainfully employed, thus they are a drain on society. And in breaking wind it's c…

I don’t think the reason that public drug use is prosecuted is because it offends people prima facie. It’s because it’s associated with and indicative of a more serious problem: addiction. Addiction fuels all kinds of crime. The same cannot be said of passing gas.