US could soon approve MDMA therapy • Hacker News Board

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#261

Post by cflewis » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:03 PM UTC

thejackgoode wrote: post #7

Can someone share any relevant experience with this? Best would be if you did it properly under supervision of clinical professional, or if you are a professional here, by any chance. Doesn’t matter if it’s US or not.

Ketamine was huge for me. I have major depression and generalized anxiety disorder. I've been on medicine that I would consider very good for me for four or five years but I wasn't getting to where I wanted to be.

By the time I took Ketamine in a clinical setting (legalized in California), I was spending 80% of my time fighting negative narratives inside my head. "I want to die" (not really, but my engineering brain had decided this was eventually a solution to every problem... Louis CK has a bit that is basically identical to the way my brain was thinking)... "this person hates me so I should hate them"... "all I ever do is fail". I only had 20% of my brain left for interacting with others. I was not a nice person to be around for any period of time. I would be withdrawn a lot because I was in my head.

My therapist asked me once "what would it feel like to wake up and not immediately feel defeated?" and I legitimately had no idea.

After a series of ketamine treatments the narratives calmed down immensely. 80%->10% to some periods in a day of 0%.

I truly despise the actual act of taking ketamine. If you're doing lozenges it tastes like shit, I always felt very nauseous after the trip. I found the trips weird and not therapeutic. Like weird patterns, sometimes seeing things gloopy, sometimes odd experiences that sound fun but just felt strange and disconcerting like flying through hyperspace with Gandalf. But the long-term results have been life-changing.

I would recommend ketamine to anyone who has gone for 2+ years or 2+ psychiatrists and haven't seen the results they had hoped for.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#262

Post by kayodelycaon » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:09 PM UTC

bnjms wrote: post #202

hammyhavoc wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's going to replace ADHD medication whatsoever. How would that even work?

For non hyperactive types I believe there is commonly anxiety with the ADD which is alleviated by the small dose of amphetamine. Maybe MDMA helps reduce anxiety for the medium term after a dose? I don’t know if that’s been found scientifically yet. I do know MDMA clears anxiety during the high. Knowing what the lack of anxiety feels like could be very powerful paired with therapy to train a body to return to lower an…

I don't see how this will help ADHD-I. This technique is already possible and done with temporary use of benzodiazepines, beta-blockers, or anti-depressants.

Therapy isn't very effective because you can't focus on the techniques when you need them.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#263

Post by dingusdew » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:10 PM UTC

phonescreen_man wrote: post #260

Starcrunch wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad to hear from someone else who's honest about their negative experience. Psychedelics seem to somehow have simply amazing PR: plentiful testimonies of their life-changing abilities, encouraging us to try them, but very little acknowledgement of their dark side. The subculture is very quick to brush away anything that goes against the narrative of the "mind-opening wonder drugs that big pharma doesn't want you…

People seem to think they can just take a load of mushies and it can solve all lives problems. The great art requires a lot of hard heart work and suffering.

Well, its like people who describe Ketamine therapy. The process itself can be deeply traumatizing, even if the after-effects make up for it. I've heard it described as deep hallucinations, often touching on dark places in your psyche, while you can't get up or do much or get away from it. On the plus side, it can make you face some difficult internal issues, but on the downside, not everyone actually responds well to that. Some people this can cause a psychological break.

Anyone who has been in the hallucinogens scene long enough knows someone who either did too much over the years and is a basket case or just had one really bad trip and never recovered or were the same after.

It's certainly not as dangerous as other drugs, but I'm fairly tired of people acting like it is inert or can only produce positive experiences.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#264

Post by kayodelycaon » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:11 PM UTC

Kirth wrote: post #183

hammyhavoc wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's going to replace ADHD medication whatsoever. How would that even work?

By fixing the underlying conditions that lead to the behaviour classified as ADHD rather than depending on stimulants as a(n admittedly very effective) crutch to power through them.

ADHD is primarily a hardware problem. Unless MDMA can fundamentally change how nerves handle neurotransmitters, the effect is going to be temporary at best.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#265

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:13 PM UTC

taeric wrote: post #249

Alupis wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is illegal for you to build and detonate a bomb in the city It is illegal to kill someone, even without a gun, under most circumstances. Perhaps we should make it double-illegal? > Far fewer than random gun violence in places you are allowed to carry guns This is false. Most gun violence does not occur from legal gun owners, or in places allowing concealed or overt carry. No, most gun violence occurs with illega…

You really don't seem to be arguing in good faith. If it is already "illegal to kill someone" and we shouldn't "make it double-illegal", then we don't need vehicular manslaughter laws, either. For that matter, why have any of the regulations on safely operating anything. After all, it would be illegal for the worst case already? Why restrict sales of ingredients that can make meth? Why regulate anything? And how is i…

[deleted]

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#266

Post by rootusrootus » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:13 PM UTC

hospitalJail wrote: post #21

I've been hearing about this for years. I've come to the reality that the future is using science instead of Physicians and buying medicine from other countries who don't have cartels in control of the medical industry.

You may be right, though I expect the 'science' part will be entirely optional, based on our recent experience. In fact, I expect it to be a hinderance and deliberately ignored.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#267

Post by naasking » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:15 PM UTC

Starcrunch wrote: post #256

wnolens wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice to read your journey. Glad you found a way through. I had a similar experience to the first half of your story. Was so unfulfilled in tech that I ended up quitting and took time off not working, trying lots of different things, getting very frustrated and depressed along the way. I did try LSD (ok, a lot of LSD) and instead of it helping me process/sort through/integrate some of my troubles it added new ones and…

I'm glad to hear from someone else who's honest about their negative experience. Psychedelics seem to somehow have simply amazing PR: plentiful testimonies of their life-changing abilities, encouraging us to try them, but very little acknowledgement of their dark side. The subculture is very quick to brush away anything that goes against the narrative of the "mind-opening wonder drugs that big pharma doesn't want you…

How many doses was that over how many months? Was it an intense regimen kind of thing, or do you think you were particularly susceptible in some way

I could see it being either, because "the dose makes the poison", but some people are almost certainly biologically more sensitive to some compounds.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#268

Post by systemtest » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:15 PM UTC

loeg wrote: post #191

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Iceland and the Scandinavian countries have, let's say, "weather-related" reasons for their depressions. Seasonal Affective Disorder also occurs in the United States. Much of the US population lives in areas with significantly shorter days in the winter.

Most of the US is significantly south of much of continental Europe (not just Scandinavia), as a point of comparison. We (broadly) experience longer days in the winter than Europeans.

Stockholm has 1973 hours of sunshine a year, compared to 2100 hours in Seattle. The US has more sun, but not enough for a significant difference.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#269

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:16 PM UTC

bluetomcat wrote: post #172

mardifoufs wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok but this isn't really true. The country with the most anti-depressant intake is Iceland , the US is around second or third place, yet the other countries in the "top ten" of antidepressant usage per capita are almost all european nations. The USA isn't an outlier, but I guess we really can't escape the "do americans really, really do X?" even when it is trivially easy to verify. The funny thing is that the reason…

Iceland and the Scandinavian countries have, let's say, "weather-related" reasons for their depressions. They are introvert societies with the highest percentage of single-person households. The reason for the US being close to them could be the high prescription culture and the social aggression inherent in everyday US life, masked behind curteous words, customer-oriented interaction and polished looks.

[deleted]

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#270

Post by photochemsyn » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:17 PM UTC

hammyhavoc wrote: post #250

GuB-42 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MDMA is an amphetamine, like many ADHD medication, so it is not that much of a stretch to think that it can work. And to answer the "but you can't patent an old molecule", in fact, yes you can. Adderall is plain old amphetamine, but with a specific ratio of the D and L type, so it could be patented. The pharmaceutical industry is adept at making small tweaks to existing drugs, a supposed improvement according to thei…

I think you misunderstood something in the comment I replied to, which stated: > Not only that, but if people can improve their condition with three treatments to the point that they no longer need their daily dose of anti-depressant or ADHD medication (or alcohol / opiates / etc. for the self-medicating cohort) then overall drug consumption will drop steeply. The key thing here is the claim being made that three dos…

How would you know if you didn't at least try? The claim that the only way that ADHD symptoms can be managed successfully is with daily use of a fairly powerful stimulant-class drug seems equally implausible.