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iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

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Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#261
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per the parent comment, the terms they would have to add to be competitive in this scenario would be "Developers can blatantly and horrendously mine all sensitive data from users." which, while they would be appreciated by many businesses that want to provide apps to iOS users, may not be as desirable to the users themselves. Essentially, what I believe that parent comment is calling out is that Apple is currently (v…

YES! And not just privacy but also shady practices around canceling and managing subscriptions and others. There is a very good reason I bought my parents iOS devices and the app store is the biggest one. Even as a technical person myself this is a big selling point for me to have an iPhone. Does it give a lot of control to apple and have they blocked some apps I wish they could allow, Yes! But I will take that over…

I'll respond to both of your comments here, since I think you're largely coming around to the same point.

> the terms they would have to add to be competitive in this scenario would be "Developers can blatantly and horrendously mine all sensitive data from users."

If they can do this as-is on iOS, that's the OS manufacturer's failure, not the failure of the store. Apple controls the runtime, they control what data gets exposed. Same as it ever was.

> Apple is currently (voluntarily) acting as a user advocate by discouraging exploitative behavior

I'm going to proceed on good faith and say I agree. Their idea of "exploitative behavior" is an obvious double-standard, but they don't make zero effort to protect their runtime. For the sake of argumentation, I'll assume they're entirely benevolent (even if I believe they aren't).

> Apple will lose the power to enforce this rule, and exploitative practices will become the new norm.

No they won't. They control the sandbox, there is no reason to assume "this rule" goes away. They just have to enforce it on an OS level instead of with arbitrary App Store signing. Their current method is arguably the worse/less secure option anyways.

> it assumes that people will continue to use TikTok, Instagram, and so on despite their privacy being grossly violated.

They already do. Apple can protect them against certain fine-grained fingerprinting from the runtime (and should), but they haven't removed any of those apps from their store. They all violate their acceptable terms for data processing, but they do it server-side where Apple can prove nothing. Apple's personal enforcement crusade failed since they cannot compel any company to truly act in good faith. It's living proof that the government should be handling this, not a private company. If Apple would lobby for privacy bills stifling Meta/TikTok, their privacy dollars would go much further than signing certs for known malicious apps.

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> And not just privacy but also shady practices around canceling and managing subscriptions and others.

Sure, all those are great features. They also require Apple to charge an asinine per-transaction fee to sustain, but I'm sure the user experience is excellent. Without the ability to impose an unfair monopoly, I'm not sure if they'll be able to offer these going forward.

> Even as a technical person myself this is a big selling point for me to have an iPhone.

I'd hate to hear what you go through when you gotta cancel the morning edition of The Times.

> But I will take that over a future where the choice is made for me by an app not being available on the store.

You don't get to choose. If the market settles on an illegal or unproductive status quo, it will be disrupted or regulated back into functionality. It doesn't matter if you're a user or a shareholder, bad behavior gets patched-up through the democratic process. Apple is standing in the way of fixing things, and instead of cooperating they're being bent into compliance by the EU and States.

> that I really don't see being an "IF" since we know developers like Facebook will jump at the chance to be shady

FWIW, it's not like Apple doesn't also have a litany of shady moments. They're cardholding PRISM members who have no problem operating in China even if it means compromising iCloud. They want to upload unique identifiers for your Photo Gallery so they can pinkie-promise that they won't use it for anything bad, complimenting their OCSP telemetry.

Facebook is no saint, but nobody is forcing you to use their app. Your "fear" is that other people might still find Facebook's terms agreeable after leaving the App Store, which is neither "your" business nor that different from the status quo. The only thing that changes is Apple isn't negotiating the business side of things anymore... and why should they? Their only concern should be keeping the runtime secure and improving their platform.

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In conclusion, myself (and a number of regulators) feel like Apple has asserted unfair control over app distribution. No foul, they still have a chance to fix things - the iOS platform can still remain secure while offering users options. The very plain reason Apple resists this is because the status quo is profitable - the App Store makes ~$80bn annually on a good year, so they'll defend it's monopoly to the death. Apple shouldn't say what the user does on a phone they own though. You should have the option to default to Apple's opinion, but purchasing any product does not make you beholden to the manufacturer's will. Apple has seemingly forgotten this: the government will kick them out of bed if it finds that they've been fucking the economy on the side this whole time.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#262

I'm dreading this. I want privacy hostile companies like Facebook to have to comply with the app store rules and respect system settings relating to privacy. As a user, I'm thrilled when Apple wields its big stick to stop big tech companies from overreaching. Before there was a bit of a compromise, I could use evil apps with some peace of mind that they wouldn't do something egregious. Now I suspect evil apps just wo…

They could allow side loaded apps with the same notarization requirements as Mac apps. This could prevent the proliferation of outright malware. Even side loaded apps are still subject to the iOS app sandbox. The permissions APIs could still be enforced too. Done correctly, this could be like current side loading but without the need for a developer certificate to make apps last more than 7 days.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#263
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iOS users spend more than Android users, and are even becoming the majority in the US. Here's some citation: https://nix-united.com/blog/are-android-vs-ios-users-really-...

Spend more, and use their devices a lot more , both Web and Apps. At least, last time I looked at market research data like this, which was admittedly 4-5 years ago.

Something that I think is often not considered when thinking about mobile device usage stats is the proportions of types of users the market is comprised of.

While I don't have any links to back the idea up, I suspect that Android's marketshare is somewhat inflated by users who'd normally be using feature phones — these users don't need anything more than the ability to make cell calls and maybe text occasionally, and even the absolute cheapest of cheap Android phones checks those boxes. There's no point in these users buying even a low-midrange Android phone, let alone a flagship or an iPhone. So while these users are technically Android users, they're not really smartphone users.

Also, the difference in rates of usage extends beyond phones. I think I read some of the same reports you did and compared to iPads, Android tablets are much more likely to end up forgotten in a drawer or collecting dust on a shelf. Having a recent low-midrange Android tablet myself (for Android app dev purposes) I would guess that this is at least partially due to how ridiculously low-spec cheap Android tablets are… mine cost almost as much as a refurbished iPad 9th gen on sale but doesn't perform a fraction as well as that model of iPad. Even my old Pixel 3XL runs circles around it.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meta already does all sorts of stuff that violates Apple's TOS, they just do it server-side. > I don't have the freedom to choose the version of the app I want. Sure you do. You can either use it or you don't. Regulating data privacy isn't Apple's job, if you want that fixed then you should take it up with the government or someone who can actually hold them accountable.

> Regulating data privacy isn't Apple's job It's part of why I pay them, so I say it is. > if you want that fixed then you should take it up with the government Yeah, I'd strongly prefer the government do what it obviously should and reign in abusive, dangerous stalking-at-scale across the entire economy, but absent that, it sure is nice to have a choice to still get some of that regulation in one area of my life, by…

> It's part of why I pay them, so I say it is.

Okay. It's meaningless in a legal context, completely unaccountable and contradictory to their own regulation.

You're welcome to insist otherwise but I don't think any just court would hear you further than that.

> Take away that option and I'm sure as shit not going to feel more free.

Nobody is taking away anything. These apps have always had the option to leave Apple's ecosystem, adding additional stores doesn't miraculously add that possibility. It's like saying that the Taco Bell opening up down the road is threatening your upscale Cantina burrito that you're eating as-we-speak.

> That's two choices

Okay, I'll amend it then. You can either use it, or you don't, or go buy an Android phone. Or degoogle your Android phone, that's 4 options.

Quit whining about liberty and put your stubbornness where your mouth is. Stay on the App Store if you insist, nobody will stop you. If you did it on a Mac, you'd probably look like a bit of a fool though. Plenty of longtime, respectful Apple devouts (see: Panic) acknowledge that the App Store is a raw deal and distribute their apps themselves. There are people other than bad actors advocating for this, as shocking as it may sound. It is possible to see the forest through the trees.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#265
I would hope that Apple is going to try adding some kind of security guardrails on this. Not sure if they could do it, though.

The one really big deal with cracked phones, is that the apps can do whatever the hell they want, and many app authors (I'll bet a number of them are on this very venue) will take advantage of that.

I know that I can be circumspect, but many of my non-technical friends, cannot. They are highly likely to be manipulated into sideloading malware.

Phones, these days, carry our whole freaking life. They are lucrative hacking targets.

Many phone owners seem to be blissfully unaware. I have at least two friends, that deliberately don't engage locks or biometrics, for convenience, yet, their phones are loaded with banking apps and whatnot (I don't use any banking apps, myself).

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#266
post #93

Having "side loading" -- also known as regular app installation on non-phone platforms -- hasn't caused chaos on desktop platforms or android. No reason to think it will on iOS either.

> hasn't caused chaos on desktop platforms I beg to differ. How many windows machines were infected in the early 2000's? Would bot-nets exist if Windows had a strict app store back then? Now: I will agree that freedom to install any software on desktops has been wonderful, and I hope it remains, but I wouldn't say it hasn't caused chaos.

Windows had absolutely ZERO security at the time though, appstore or not you could just go into the System32 directory and delete everything. I don't see how any appstore would have solved that, malware would have spread equally with such a poor security model.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meta already does all sorts of stuff that violates Apple's TOS, they just do it server-side. > I don't have the freedom to choose the version of the app I want. Sure you do. You can either use it or you don't. Regulating data privacy isn't Apple's job, if you want that fixed then you should take it up with the government or someone who can actually hold them accountable.

> Regulating data privacy isn't Apple's job, if you want that fixed then you should take it up with the government or someone who can actually hold them accountable. I live in the United States of America, where the government is bought and paid for by companies who dislike privacy for their users. In the meantime, it may not be Apple's "job," but it's part of their value proposition, and the grumbling from software…

You live in the United States of America, which has had Google, Microsoft and Apple under it's thumb since Snowden's leaks. If you want to insinuate that Apple protects you against state-level actors, you should disprove that or at least refute their own transparency page[0].

> the grumbling from software vendors indicates it's reasonably effective.

If not the software vendors, who are you trusting to keep your best interests at-heart here?

[0] https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#269

I predict that this will probably be irrelevant to the majority of users. There’s no way apple makes side loading easy enough for anyone outside of HN to use.

That's going to end up the same way as Android if I have to guess yeah, as complicated as it gets for a normal user to activate so that nobody uses this outside of tech workers.

Then they can just say that it's technically "there" for the courts.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only Apple sells iPhones, so I wouldn’t worry about preinstalled 3rd party apps with root permissions like we see on Android phones.

Only Facebook makes the Facebook app, and I find it extremely easy to imagine a Facebook app that can only be sideloaded, so that Facebook can bypass the restrictions put in place by the App Store. For instance, Apps are currently not allowed to degrade functionality if the user says no to a permissions request (e.g. location tracking).

Facebook has actually done this before with their Onavo VPN that intercepted all your web traffic in exchange for something like a $5 gift card every month. Distributed publicly using their internal enterprise certificate and got their cert revoked.
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