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Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

nautil.us

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Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#261

Post by alok-g »

labrador wrote: post #258
alok-g wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course. We are intending to compare only the first part, i.e., going into the period of blackout. The original commentator's [1] is claiming that the experience of death is similar to the experience of going into blackout with anesthesia. And then, for the latter, the person comes back with partial memories of that going-into phase. Hence the original commentator claims that the experience of death has already bee…

> The original commentator's is claiming that the experience of death is similar to the experience of going into blackout with anesthesia I'm not getting your point. I am going to assume that like a lot of people you have a fixed conception of being dead and that is you cease to exist. If you believe that, then I can see how you can compare being dead to being anesthetized. I'm saying being dead may be far different…

I agree with you, under the assumption of afterlife or other possibilities you have listed.

The current discussion is under the thread of the original commenter, which says:

"... pretty much deconstructed the whole idea of an afterlife in 20 minutes."

That is, we are under "if (there's no afterlife)" branch.

I am not personally settled on which possibility is the reality. So I think we are in alignment.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#262

Post by mtalantikite »

ajuc wrote: post #251
NHQ wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are conflating abstract reasoning with consciousness. Your invisible line has no effect on the substrate, because the line does not exists. Consciousness effects the mind/brain/body complex. The lines you describe are placed by your intuition. Most math is intuitive as such, and exists outside of mind, which is why anybody can "discover" axioms, ratios, etc. If your notion was correct, only a perfect atomic order…

> Consciousness effects the mind/brain/body complex. Or so it seems. It's entirely possible that consciousness is just post-factum rationalization of what the body did. Have you noticed that sometimes you make a decision but don't do it, and sometimes you make a decision and do it? > If your notion was correct, only a perfect atomic ordering inside the brain would create a precise and useful thought, such as how to f…

> Have you noticed that sometimes you make a decision but don't do it, and sometimes you make a decision and do it?

Absolutely. Sometimes I'll notice in my meditation practice that something will arise and then I'll watch it get labeled by my brain and brought into cognition, but there is a gap between it. It's like watching the brain/body work something out and then present it to your awareness.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#263

Post by otikik »

ajuc wrote: post #250
otikik wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pick 3 random stones and arrange them so that they form a straight line. Does the line "exist"? If you consider that only the atoms "count" for existing, then the line does not exist. (Neither do the stones, by the way - since they are constantly exchanging minor quantities of atoms and electrons with the rest of the environment, the set that defines what each stone is is constantly changing. But let's ignore that bi…

You can play with the meaning of words, but in the end I don't care how you call things or how you define existence. You get funny results like dragons and elves existing, whatever, suit yourself. I just care about how the world actually works and not what labels we put on it. So if consciousness exists in the same manner that imaginary lines you draw between stars - fine. Why does it matter?

I think you missed the context in which the conversation was taking place. The OP was asking how a mind can be defined by atoms and still be transcendent or eternal in any way. I just offered my view.

It doesn't need to matter to you, it only needs to matter to them.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#264

Post by otikik »

svnt wrote: post #220
otikik wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pick 3 random stones and arrange them so that they form a straight line. Does the line "exist"? If you consider that only the atoms "count" for existing, then the line does not exist. (Neither do the stones, by the way - since they are constantly exchanging minor quantities of atoms and electrons with the rest of the environment, the set that defines what each stone is is constantly changing. But let's ignore that bi…

You might like to look into papers/books on Integrated Information Theory by Tononi et al. IIT essentially explores the consequences and math of this type of emergence. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_information_theor...

Thank you, friend, very interesting, I will give it a look!

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#265

Post by canjobear »

simonh wrote: post #157
canjobear wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you’ve ever awoken from general anesthesia, you know what death will be like. The experience of general anesthesia is: you go under, and then suddenly you are awake (hopefully) after your operation, with no intervening memories. I don't see how this tells you what death is like. Death is like the stuff in between when you go to sleep and wake up, which you have no memory of (because there is nothing to remember)…

The point I think that death is just like losing conciseness completely and being just totally gone, and you just had that experience. The only difference is that with death you never come back.

You didn't have that experience though. Or if you did you don't remember anything from it. The whole point of general anesthesia is you don't experience anything while under it.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#266

Post by layer8 »

Hayarotle wrote: post #135
simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

Some forms of panpsychism (such as panprotopsychism) aren't much different from emergent materialism. Emergent materialism states human consciousness originates from the state of a physical brain, while the constituent parts of the human brain (and its physical interactions) have nothing resembling consciousness. Some forms of panpsychism would argue the physical interactions between the parts are already proto-consc…

The problem of panpsychism is that it doesn’t explain anything. It postulates some sort of mechanism that builds up our consciousness based on what amounts to a dual realm of psychic mechanics, but it doesn’t explain at all how this nonphysical mechanism is supposed to be able to account for consciousness in a way that the known laws of physics allegedly can’t.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#267

Post by layer8 »

lend000 wrote: post #16
simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

Not taking one position or the other, but you can't make any conclusions about whether a separate consciousness exists from anesthesia, only that no memories were formed that can be accessed by that consciousness (even if it did experience qualia during that time).

Maybe you actually have a thousand consciousnesses, but only remember one, and the other 999 consciousnesses are just helplessly experiencing your physical body? You can’t disprove that, but why entertain any such notion?

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#268

Post by altruios »

ne0flex wrote: post #219
EarthLaunch wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that life ends in a *0 - it's more that we don't get to know what effect our life has. The not-knowing is the hard part. But a little imagination is all it takes to see that life could have some undiscovered long term effect.

I mean 0 in terms of yourself. If nothing exists after death, the way I view it is that upon your death, from your perspective, time ceases to exist and everything essentially dies, sure the world may continue existing around you but, but from you're perspective, it has effectively ended thus 0. The "greater effect" thing is off less concern to me and just seems to sidestep the fact that the objective you ceases to e…

which 'you' are you talking about?

you exist as a entity in other's minds: which is arguably a larger pool of 'you' than the you in your mind.

which explains the drive to influence others: when someone does something out of 'remembrance' or a tribute, metaphorically they are 'running your code'. extorting influence through these proxy 'you' in other's minds is the goal of some people...

if you solidify yourself in other's minds you might survive as an idea throughout the years - that's the part of you that lives forever... so update and modify your image in other's minds while you still can.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#269

Post by layer8 »

EmilyHughes wrote: post #27
simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

The radio-receiver metaphor doesn't go far enough as it still assumes a somewhat physical brain, but it helps at first untangeling yourself from materialism. If reality is nothing but a dream it would be no problem to dream up a brain that modulates the dream-content if it is manipulated. - Taking red paint and spraying it over your wall will modulate the dream in such that the wall appears red. - Taking a hammer and…

What is this adding to the physical laws though? The simplest explanation is that your dream physics is actually the same as our hard-science physics, and you’re effectively just relabeling things.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#270

Post by labrador »

alok-g wrote: post #261
labrador wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The original commentator's is claiming that the experience of death is similar to the experience of going into blackout with anesthesia I'm not getting your point. I am going to assume that like a lot of people you have a fixed conception of being dead and that is you cease to exist. If you believe that, then I can see how you can compare being dead to being anesthetized. I'm saying being dead may be far different…

I agree with you, under the assumption of afterlife or other possibilities you have listed. The current discussion is under the thread of the original commenter, which says: "... pretty much deconstructed the whole idea of an afterlife in 20 minutes." That is, we are under "if (there's no afterlife)" branch. I am not personally settled on which possibility is the reality. So I think we are in alignment.

Good. I thought we might be.
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