Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#261

Post by lolsal » Tue, May 03, 2022, 4:47 PM UTC

0x500x79 wrote: post #231

lolsal wrote: post #213

Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues? There is no value in body-language when communicating? I'm all for fully WFH policies, but I think it's a bit naive or dishonest to say that it's exactly the same work experience. I've been working remote for over a decade and wil…

I think that a lot of those things can be replaced with new techniques as time goes on. Just because this is how we did things yesterday doesn't mean there aren't better ways to do this it just requires some thinking and investment, IMO. The tooling that has been developed during the pandemic has taken this space forward by leaps and bounds and I expect this to continue. Instead of focusing on the how, I would focus…

> I think that a lot of those things can be replaced with new techniques as time goes on. Just because this is how we did things yesterday doesn't mean there aren't better ways to do this ...

This is a totally fair point, but multi-cursor online whiteboards are not the same as standing in front of a whiteboard and brainstorming with a colleague. "Zoom happy hour" or whatever cannot replace spontaneous lunches, after-work drinks, pre-work coffees, etc.

> ... it just requires some thinking and investment, IMO.

I agree and understand, but let's not pretend we're not asking everyone to essentially "beta test" WFH and endure the friction of finding these new techniques. There are tradeoffs here and it's not a seamless transition. Remote work is a skill that needs honing, whereas office work is 'the standard'.

> Not to mention the IMMENSE benefits you get from remote work. Having those tradeoffs and changing the way we work: I am all in.

Working remotely has immense benefits, I agree. I agree so whole-heartedly that I will never work in an office again. That being said, despite all its benefits, there are tradeoffs that don't have equivalents in the WFH world. Anyone that dismisses working from an office entirely is either ignorant or being dishonest, in my opinion.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#262

Post by vxNsr » Tue, May 03, 2022, 4:48 PM UTC

larrysalibra wrote: post #124

Apple knows what form of work is best for Apple. If it turns out they are wrong, they'll eventually suffer in the market as the result of making the wrong choice. That said, being remote or hybrid first seems like it would be a huge competitive advantage for a least some teams in Apple...like the Facetime team. I tried using their "new" like zoom Facetime meeting with a URL feature for a work-related meeting. The lac…

I feel like this is true for many apple tools with robust competition. Apple’s offering always only seems to scratch the surface of what’s necessary to be competitive, plus their unique apple-y take. Which, tbf, I often find refreshing, if only it had all the other features I need too.

Instead I’m often felt feeling like someone at apple said “we can do this better” but gets distracted shortly after deploying the MVP.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#263

Post by madengr » Tue, May 03, 2022, 4:48 PM UTC

lolsal wrote: post #213

Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues? There is no value in body-language when communicating? I'm all for fully WFH policies, but I think it's a bit naive or dishonest to say that it's exactly the same work experience. I've been working remote for over a decade and wil…

No post body was provided.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#264

Post by lokar » Tue, May 03, 2022, 4:48 PM UTC

no_wizard wrote: post #240

Even more frustrating: You can't just pick the campus you want to work from. When I worked at Apple most teams were distributed by seat availability not co-location, so you could be on the same campus or set of buildings but all work in different parts of the offices / campus so all meetings with exception of critical ones were held in a remote fashion in conference rooms anyway. So it wouldn't have mattered if I wor…

At Google people routinely have VC meetings between adjacent buildings.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#265

Post by golergka » Tue, May 03, 2022, 4:48 PM UTC

thebean11 wrote: post #166

golergka wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is not employing people from other countries that the office in the first place.

So what's your point?

My point is about how not being remote, quote,

> will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied"

because it's not about coming to office 3 days a week, it's about not hiring international remote workers in the first place.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#266

Post by sam0x17 » Tue, May 03, 2022, 4:49 PM UTC

lolsal wrote: post #213

Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues? There is no value in body-language when communicating? I'm all for fully WFH policies, but I think it's a bit naive or dishonest to say that it's exactly the same work experience. I've been working remote for over a decade and wil…

Unapologetically, yes, and I'd take it a step further. Often the online version is more fun and more interactive than a bunch of people uncomfortably thrust into the same room. There are things people suddenly become comfortable saying and doing that they wouldn't normally say or do in person. If you've grown up with gamer friends you know exactly what I'm talking about -- seeing someone's silly avatar light up when they talk versus being in the room with them is sometimes just more fun and more open and more preferable. It gives them the ability to express themselves exactly how they want to express themselves, not limited by their appearance which they only have so much control over. I talked with my nephew about this, since I noticed he and his friends never really have sleepovers and such like our generation did, and he cited this very reason. His friends are just more fun to be around in a Discord call than in person. Furthermore, he is able to socialize a LOT more than my peers were able to at that age--they'll do 4-5 hour discord calls every night.

For very extroverted people, the in-person experience might be superior, but I'd be willing to bet they just haven't put effort into connecting in online spaces. Until you've spent thousands of hours doing so, it's hard to knock it legitimately. On the flip side I've seen introverts really open up in these online scenarios in ways they never normally would, and I'm not about to design my entire life around something my team doesn't even want.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#267

Post by draw_down » Tue, May 03, 2022, 4:50 PM UTC

crypot wrote: post #259

I don't see how there can be any debate around WFH. The S&P 500 had record profitability during this completely unplanned WFH experience. If WFH was so terrible for business there should be ample proof, but so far it has only be shown to be a success.

No post body was provided.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#268

Post by dncornholio » Tue, May 03, 2022, 4:51 PM UTC

Fomite wrote: post #206

dncornholio wrote: post #118

Ignorant European here, I fail to see any connections.. > They said that Apple's reasons for implementing the policy don't stand up, and that the policy is wasteful, inflexible and will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" workforce How does this even work?

The logic behind this is that work from home allowed greater participation from not-these groups. Folks whose physical or mental health was improved in a work from home environment (I know someone with chronic migraines, for whom the typical 'Glass and steel open office' workspace is basically hell on a random draw of days). Work from home also allowed for more schedule flexibility - it's hard to run an errand, pick…

How it makes for more white employees I fail to comprehend. Even if there was reason, remote work only hides the problem but does not solve it.

You could argue letting people work from home creates only more separation of cultures.. If you want bigger cultural diversity just treat everyone equally?

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#269

Post by jasonlotito » Tue, May 03, 2022, 4:52 PM UTC

lolsal wrote: post #213

Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues? There is no value in body-language when communicating? I'm all for fully WFH policies, but I think it's a bit naive or dishonest to say that it's exactly the same work experience. I've been working remote for over a decade and wil…

> Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions?

No. Online whiteboards have benefits that in-person whiteboard sessions do not, obviously.

> There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues?

No, obviously there is value in having lunches together with your colleagues, just as there are downsides.

> There is no value in body language when communicating?

There is value in body language, just as there is probably more value in well-written communication.

> I think it's a bit naive or dishonest to say that it's exactly the same work experience

Many people who oppose returning to the office would agree with you. It's a much-improved work experience.

> but there are some things you just cannot replicate online or with video calls.

Exactly, and I agree with you. It is much safer.

A predominantly WFH experience is, in pretty much all your examples, a better experience than working every day from the office. Suggesting it's merely as good as working form the office does it a great disservice.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#270

Post by lampshades » Tue, May 03, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

sam0x17 wrote: post #266

lolsal wrote: post #213

Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues? There is no value in body-language when communicating? I'm all for fully WFH policies, but I think it's a bit naive or dishonest to say that it's exactly the same work experience. I've been working remote for over a decade and wil…

Unapologetically, yes, and I'd take it a step further. Often the online version is more fun and more interactive than a bunch of people uncomfortably thrust into the same room. There are things people suddenly become comfortable saying and doing that they wouldn't normally say or do in person. If you've grown up with gamer friends you know exactly what I'm talking about -- seeing someone's silly avatar light up when…

This is me. I find it much easier to converse online. I also am content staying in my house for years on end (as COVID has shown) and getting my social interaction from text on a computer screen.

The internet has been my main source of social contact since I was 12 (at which point I just stopped going outside and spent all my time building websites), so I guess I've adapted to this way of living.