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Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

popehat.substack.com

261–270 of 633 posts

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#261

The comments on this thread seem to be quite wildly missing White's point. Many of the arguments taking place here seem premised on the idea that Ken White has attempted to solve, once and for all, the "cancel culture" problem --- or somehow write a dispositive argument that "cancel culture" isn't real. He's not doing any of these things. He's responding to a specific NYT staff editorial. White agrees with many of yo…

"His point is that you have to discuss something more particular than "the right to speak your mind without fear of shame or shunning". You've never had that right"

This is a bit flawed, essentially 'straw man' argument in the grand scheme.

While there might be good reason to critique the NYT article, the response I think missed the bigger point.

Nobody is really making the argument that speech isn't going to have consequences.

The 'Cancel Culture Does not Exist' or 'This Is Not A 1st Amendment Issue' arguments are already tired, empty canards.

The awful failure of the authors argument are clearly evident in his dismissal of the Harper's Magazine moment - he argues 'nobody bothers to define cancel culture' etc. which is bullshit.

Stephen Pinker, one of the Harper's signatories, faced concerted and vicious attempt at 'cancellation' of some of his positions and credentials when he dared to voice the heretic idea along the lines that policing in America is largely much more heavy handed than eslewehere, and that this is the fundamental issues, less so race. God forbid (!).

Thankfully, Stephen Pinker has enough credentials to hold off the cancellers.

JK Rowling is another good pop culture example. People lament that 'she's a billionaire and can't be cancelled' again which is not true. The amount of front page sardonic vitriol about her by ostensibly 'respectable' publications is very directly translated into hesitancy on every popular front: movie deals, book deals, actors fear of 'being in the out club' if they appear in a film based upon her book etc. Her 'cancellation' can be literally be measured in dollars.

It's pernicious specifically because the vast majority of participants actually are probably not bothered entirely by Rowling or Pinker comments - but that the 'fear of association' created by the 'Cancel Screamers' creates a chilling effect on speech and participation.

Ergo the 'consequence' of speech is not legitimate: people are not 'running from Rowling' because of what they think of her positions, they are running from her because of what others might think of them.

I'll step back my argument an inch and admit that there are actually nutbars (of all stripes) who probably believe they can 'say whatever, whenever' - 1 minute on Twitter will remind us of that, however there's a gigantic grey are of obvious areas of public cancellation.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#262

The comments on this thread seem to be quite wildly missing White's point. Many of the arguments taking place here seem premised on the idea that Ken White has attempted to solve, once and for all, the "cancel culture" problem --- or somehow write a dispositive argument that "cancel culture" isn't real. He's not doing any of these things. He's responding to a specific NYT staff editorial. White agrees with many of yo…

I don't think we should lose sight of just how batshit insane the NYT editorial was. We can continue to talk about Cancel Culture, but the opening assertion of the editorial was that we have a right to, "...speak [our] minds and voice [our] opinions in public without fear of being shamed or shunned." That's gobsmackingly wrong. It's the kind of sentence that, to me at least, grinds my mental gears to a halt. I just..…

I can't find the quote, but Norman Rockwell said that the inspiration for his Freedom of Speech painting was a town hall he attended where a man not much liked by the community was allowed to speak his piece, even when the people did not like what he had to say.

I'm not arguing we shouldn't be able to shame or shun (the NYT itself would be my preferred target). I think the idea is that we should aspire to resolving our differences through dialog. What we have now is a crowd of people who feel that dialog is no longer necessary, and that to even simply engage in dialog with one's political enemies is bad and might somehow taint you.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we should lose sight of just how batshit insane the NYT editorial was. We can continue to talk about Cancel Culture, but the opening assertion of the editorial was that we have a right to, "...speak [our] minds and voice [our] opinions in public without fear of being shamed or shunned." That's gobsmackingly wrong. It's the kind of sentence that, to me at least, grinds my mental gears to a halt. I just..…

From TFA: > Americans don’t have, and have never had, any right to be free of shaming or shunning. The First Amendment protects our right to speak free of government interference. It does not protect us from other people saying mean things in response to our speech. First, the term "free speech" is overloaded-- it means a legal right to speak free of government interference, and it also means a cultural environment o…

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Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#264
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The problem with the debate on "cancel culture" is a lack of specificity. The fact is that there are certain occasions where "canceling" seems fine, and others, where it does not. And I think a problem with the progressive argument is the refusal to acknowledge that there can ever be any excesses. Actually, many progressives do acknowledge that. Plenty of people on the left feel that cancel culture sometimes goes to…

When was the last time that someone genuinely powerful was successfully cancelled?

Harvey Weinstein?

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#265
post #204

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/worlds-dullest-editorial-launc... Matt Taibbi's great post on this same topic. 'This Times editorial is watered down almost to the level of a public service announcement written for the Cartoon Network, or maybe a fortune cookie (“Free speech is a process, not a destination. Winning numbers 4, 9, 11, 32, 46…”). It made the Harper’s letter read like a bin Laden fatwa, but it’s somehow aro…

Taibbi has mostly torpedoed his credibility with Russian apoligism. Him and Glenn Greenwald.

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Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#266
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny to see all the shifts on this. 18 USC 1001 was "chickensh-t" that they wouldn't pull back in his day to Ken... at least until it wasn't. We talked about chilling effects and heckler's vetoes, but now they're well-deserved social sanctions? I've been reading him for probably a decade now, so it's hard not to notice how things change whenever the shoe is on the other foot.

It's extremely hard for me to imagine how anyone who's read or listened to a lot of Ken's commentary could walk away thinking that he was suddenly in favor of 18 USC 1001 just because of the existence of the Trump administration. He regularly criticizes the statute. I don't know, I really just don't see it. ---- Also, quick sidenote on the heckler's veto: > We talked about chilling effects and heckler's vetoes, but n…

Oh, he hates the statute normally. He just failed to even express mild criticism of it when it was abused and he was discussing the trial, which stood out when he was literally discussing the merits of a trial centered on one. Maybe he made up for it on some episode I didn't listen to, there are a lot of them and there's no way I heard them all, but I was kinda surprised to see him fail to mention a hobby horse of his in a discussion of a trial centered on said hobby horse.

> The heckler's veto isn't really the right term to use when talking about cancel culture or shouting down speakers. The heckler's veto is more about the government shutting down speech under the assumption that it might cause a riot or disruption in the future.

You say that as if nothing got shut down or forced to pay huge security fees due to other people being moved to violence against the speakers, but there were and have been lawsuits over the same. One of which I think even involved Clark, though I didn't follow that particularly closely.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#267
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your "move the goalposts" and raise a "mote and bailey". I'm describing cancel culture as it is, which is different from "calling your boss a fatty" (or a Nazi for that matter). We might well decide that the "right thing" in these situations is different. Which reminds me - does someone have an obligation to hire me after I call them a fatty?

I’m not convinced it’s different from “cancel culture as it is”. One common theme I’ve seen — including in this thread! — is people creating a dichotomy between “free speech” and “feelings”. Usually that means they want to say something controversial, but their own feelings get hurt when they receive pushback, so they try to reframe the debate in such a way that they’re the aggrieved party. The “insult my boss” is a…

Get fired is "their own feelings get hurt"?

The boss situation is a lousy experiment because its result tells us nothing about what the result should be in the situation we're discussing. (For one, my boss isn't going to fire me by threatening the business if I call him a fatty.)

For example, it's relatively easy to figure out who the person is behind this account. The mob could decide that I've "done wrong" and go after my income. That's no where near me screaming at my boss that he's a Nazi or a fatty.

FWIW, "free speech" might not be the right hook - toleration might be more accurate. After all, many of the cancelers justify their actions as "we tolerate everything except intolerance."

The answer to "must my boss tolerate me calling him fatty?" is probably different from "should my fellow employees lose their income because A says that I called B 'fatty'?"

And then there's the fact that the cancellers go after everyone who might employ me. My fat boss doesn't have that kind of reach.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#268

The comments on this thread seem to be quite wildly missing White's point. Many of the arguments taking place here seem premised on the idea that Ken White has attempted to solve, once and for all, the "cancel culture" problem --- or somehow write a dispositive argument that "cancel culture" isn't real. He's not doing any of these things. He's responding to a specific NYT staff editorial. White agrees with many of yo…

I think both you and Ken and the New York Times are getting tripped up by the phrase "free speech." What the New York Times is actually talking about is "ideological pluralism." When elderly Millennials like me were growing up, you could have--at least in educated circles--a broad range of heterodox opinions without anyone getting too upset about what you said.

And that's just not true anymore. I've got in trouble with white progressives in my social circle (which is mostly white progressives) for saying we should carefully scrutinize refugees from Syria and Iraq. Meanwhile my dad--whose grandfather was an Imam and who has worked in Afghanistan--expressed the exact same opinion after we withdrew from Afghanistan and there was the question of Afghan refugees.

Ken is absolutely correct that conservatives used to do it too. But I didn't grow up in the deep south where being in favor of same-sex marriage in the 1990s would get you socially ostracized. I am alarmed, however, that in blue America in 2022, I can't even discuss how my Muslim family members feel about marriage, divorce, etc., except to condemn their views. Saying "rural America in the 1990s was just as bad" doesn't actually score any points with me.

I think the New York Times editorial is confused and inelegant. But kudos to them for actually speaking up. Because I don't think we're all just having some collective delusion that something has changed in "liberal society" and that change isn't a good one.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#269
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For people to stop calling it "cancel culture" whenever they face reasonable consequences for actions they take that harm others would be a good start. Someone having an opinion different than you does not cause you harm. This is the Big Lie underlying a lot of the rhetoric that has been labeled "cancel culture". The potential harm at shutting down the opportunity to find out you were wrong about something by heari…

Nobody is getting cancelled for having a different opinion on tax rates or foreign policy. There are very specific and narrow types of speech that lead to 'cancellation,' and it's almost always speech that attacks people's identity, race, and sexuality. Historically that type of speech has been equated with harm.

I agree that’s there’s a pattern for what gets you cancelled, but there is absolutely not a list published somewhere that tells you what subjects to avoid.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#270
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was the last time that someone genuinely powerful was successfully cancelled?

Donald Trump? Although that depends on what you mean by "successfully" cancelled. Plenty of politicians and celebrities have been cancelled for racist, sexist and otherwise abusive behavior, but I don't know what your line for "genuinely" powerful is, either.

>Donald Trump

Trump was banned from twitter after he already lost the presidency, and banning from a mediocre low-IQ forum is not how most cancel culture opponents define it, the dominant conception has an essential material aspect to it, such as firing from a job, harassment or extra-legal violence.

>Plenty of politicians and celebrities have been cancelled for racist, sexist and otherwise abusive behavior, but I don't know what your line for "genuinely powerful" is, either

Not OP, but I suspect his\her line for "genuinely powerful being cancelled" is that the cancellation is not planned and catalysed by a "more powerful" entity. When and if "cancelling" is ever used against a powerful person, there are often extremely obvious marks of an equal or superior in power person(s) behind it. When this doesn't happen, the cancellation attempt fails (e.g. Sexual allegations against Joe Biden failing).

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