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CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#261

Post by leereeves »

throwawaycities wrote: post #214
teakettle42 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m glad that my US constitutional rights cannot be abrogated by a supranational judicial system.

I used to hear this all the time in law school, something to the effect that the US should never relinquish its sovereignty by signing the Rome Statute and subject itself to the International Criminal Court. This was at the height of the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the associated allegations of POW torture and abuse (e.g. Abu Ghraib, waterboarding, guantanamo bay, etc…). How ironic 20 years later the very sa…

> look at the other UN member countries not signatories to the Rome Statute subject to the ICC: China, Iraq, Israel, Libya, Qatar, and Yemen

That's far from a complete list. There are 193 UN members[1]; only 123 have made themselves subject to the ICC[2].

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_United_Na...

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_parties_to_the_Rome_Sta...

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#262

Post by keybored »

hammock wrote: post #252
keybored wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of it. I wrote two paragraphs as an interpretation of a two-paragraph comment so I don't know how else to explain it at this point.

Do you believe "moral high ground" functions as a result of optics, not as a result of actual correct moral action?

You can achieve a moral high ground based on your actions. And that's the only way to do it, in fact. But that clearly has nothing to do with this post since it is about example No. 19281 of the CIA doing some heinous shit.

And what's the apparent takeaway from that? That Western Civ might lose its moral high ground. But what about example No. 19280 of the CIA doing some henious shit? What about No. 19279? ...

Whence this alleged moral high ground?

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#263

Post by consumer451 »

mywacaday wrote: post #105
mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

Hard to see how the US can claim a moral high ground on anything when it continues to not be a member of the ICC and is even occasionally actively hostile towards individual judges and member countries by threatening sanctions.

Reminder that since 2002, on the books is a law authorizing the US to attack the ICC in the Hague, with the US military!

> ASPA authorizes the President of the United States to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court". This authorization has led the act to be nicknamed the "Hague Invasion Act".

> The act prohibits federal, state and local governments and agencies (including courts and law enforcement agencies) from assisting the International Criminal Court (ICC). For example, it prohibits the extradition of any person from the U.S. to the ICC; it also prohibits the transfer of classified national security information and law enforcement information to the ICC.

> The act also prohibits U.S. military aid to countries that are party to the ICC. However, exceptions are allowed for aid to NATO members, major non-NATO allies, Taiwan, and countries that have entered into "Article 98 agreements", agreeing not to hand over U.S. nationals to the ICC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...

https://www.hrw.org/news/2002/08/03/us-hague-invasion-act-be...

edit after 7 upvotes, sorry: I just want to make clear that I still largely support Pax Americana, because the alternatives are worse. But this law is cowardly and actually works against US interests, just like torture.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#264

Post by pmoriarty »

mandmandam wrote: post #153
pmoriarty wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"History has shown that the US can do all sorts of horrendous things and nothing ever seems to happen..." Well, nothing except: 1 - make lots of enemies 2 - make the world a more dangerous place 3 - lose the moral high ground and the respect of people/countries who might have otherwise been friends These things have consequences... measured in American lives (which are, sadly, the only kind of lives some people care…

Up to 8 billion present human lives, trillions or qaudrillions of potential human lives, and uncountable animal and plant lives. That's not exaggeration. Those are the stakes America is fucking around with by provoking the world like this and spooking the shit out of everyone.

It's not just America either... plenty of blame to go around.

Power corrupts.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#265

Post by sneak »

cwkoss wrote: post #260
sneak wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that literally the only way to dismantle the CIA and other blatantly and obviously criminal portions of the US government without using violence is to spread wide the fact that they are a portion of the government that operates entirely outside of the rule of law, and that we can't be said to actually have the rule of law/democracy/freedom/etc if it doesn't apply equally to everyone. If enough people shout ab…

That's a fair perspective, and one I've previously held. However my view of social attitudes is that they almost always follow a bell curve: exposure to extreme positions are how moderates reflect on and revise the status quo. The long tail must move before the centroid can shift. 10% of the population needs to call for the execution of all torturers in the CIA before the zeitgeist's illusion of justice painted over…

I don't think violence actually works to solve the problem, however.

In addition to being barbaric, it also has the tiny problem of being ineffective. You can't execute an ideology, you have to out-meme it.

The concept of an above-the-law class has a long and beloved history because us social human beings seem to really love (and require!) having a very clear and well-defined social hierarchy within which one can orient oneself. Most of us would even prefer clarity about the hierarchy and where one resides within it to elevated position within a murkier hierarchy.

You can't get rid of a monarch just by stripping them of their power and installing a parliament; the poor will keep polishing their crowns and spoons for free until the cows come home. You literally have to construct a better meme to replace the fundamental concept. You'll have to out-James Bond James Bond (and Batman and Superman and Jack Bauer and Jason Bourne and friends).

I used to think that the US constitution was an explicitly fraudulent meme promoted by the ruling class (I think Washington was the largest landowner in the colonies?) to usurp, and maybe it was, but this Lincoln quote made me think a little more deeply about it:

> As a nation, we began by declaring that 'all men are created equal.' We now practically read it 'all men are created equal, except negroes.' When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read 'all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty – to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.

Even Lincoln pointed out we were full of shit. I suppose he's right that it's better to fake it 'till you make it than to not give a shit at all.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#266

Post by gambler »

I am sure after learning this all Americans will take to the streets and after a massive protest the government will defund CIA and prosecute everyone responsible for the related crimes. Right?

And if that doesn't happen, European companies will cancel American accounts, IKEA will close shop here, GOG will refuse to sell games in US, etc, etc. Right?

Because, as I've learned on HN in the last two weeks, all citizens are responsible for what their government is doing, regardless of their knowledge or level of support for the practice.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#267

Post by boomboomsubban »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #198
tiahura wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel obtaibed at the torture extreme is simply not reliable. Besides a few anecdotes, how many torture debriefings have you read and then cross checked? Unless you’re in the industry, how could you possibly think you have an informed opinion on methods of intelligence gathering?

You call Torture an industry? Like what, tech manufacturing? That's disturbing. While the myth about Tprture's (lack of) effectiveness persists? The idea that being an "industry" insider is necessary to understand Human Psychology 101 is also misinformation. These ideas come from the NSA, CIA, etc. It doesn't mean they're true. It doesn't mean we have to buy them.

Sadly, torture is an industry. Much like so many other aspects of our intelligence agencies, the job is often done by third party contractors.

The most famous is Mitchell Jessen and Associates, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Elmer_Mitchell#Work_as_a... , but it's not the only one. Margot Williams published articles about an airline company used to send people to black sites across the world.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#268

Post by [deleted] »

xyzzyz wrote: post #223
teakettle42 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Due process” is an individual US constitutional right to have access to our established legal procedures and rules prior to any deprivation of “life, liberty, or property”. I don’t see a due process violation in your link — just an example of how abdicating sovereign judicial authority can go wrong, as is the case with diplomatic immunity.

There was no "diplomatic immunity" issue relevant in that case. The perpetrator had no diplomatic immunity. She was only immune to prosecution because she ran away, and the US government denied extradition because it would be "troubling".

[deleted]

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#270

Post by vlovich123 »

teakettle42 wrote: post #204
nisa wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"due process" - not really: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Harry_Dunn#Diplomatic...

“Due process” is an individual US constitutional right to have access to our established legal procedures and rules prior to any deprivation of “life, liberty, or property”. I don’t see a due process violation in your link — just an example of how abdicating sovereign judicial authority can go wrong, as is the case with diplomatic immunity.

The executive branch gave itself the authority to murder US citizens abroad by decree without any judicial oversight based on a declaration of a "targeted killing policy" (Anwar Al-Aulaqi being the first). Seems like those constitutional rights are getting weaker without any legislative or judicial review, no?
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