New WebKit features in Safari 15.4 • Hacker News Board

Re: New WebKit features in Safari 15.4

#261

Post by tarsinge » Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 2:12 PM UTC

agust wrote: post #249

tarsinge wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Safari remains the "new IE", the problem browser for which developers must find workarounds. More like the non-Chrome browser for which Chrome developers must find workarounds. I can't remember encountering a Safari specific problem in the tens of websites I have developed in the last years. Now sure I understand the pain if you are developing web apps instead, but in that case maybe it's time to assume Chrome is a…

Sure, simple websites mostly work in Safari. But we're in 2022, and indeed a lot of companies develop web apps, and not simple websites like 20 years ago. The web itself is an app platform. The only browser preventing it to happen on mobile is Safari. Have a look at the desktop. There, web apps have replaced most native apps long ago.

That's not in contradiction with what I said. I have nothing against web apps and I'm not arguing against their success. But they don't make the web irrelevant, they are just something different, just historically built on top of the web.

And indeed when we have a look at the desktop it further proves the point, Electron apps ship their whole execution platform, basically an OS inside an OS, and it's Chrome. So the divorce between Chrome the app platform and the web has already started. Safari is a blessing for me because it force that issue to crop up and be discussed, instead of just letting the web slowly become the Google platform.

Re: New WebKit features in Safari 15.4

#262

Post by stack_framer » Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 2:12 PM UTC

jmull wrote: post #218

jimkleiber wrote: post #13

Edit: removing the snark/sarcasm I put into it. I was really hoping this announcement would include support for push notifications for PWAs. I've been trying to build a few Discourse forums and they work very well as PWAs except for the fact that iOS doesn't support PWAs sending push notifications. So here's to hoping the next iteration will.

I’m surprised by all the heat around the push notifications API. Is it really going to mean that much to web apps? I’m assuming it will work pretty much like push notifications on desktop, which is an awful UX.

It would mean a great deal to all sorts of web apps!

To provide just one example, I released a turn-based word game as a PWA two years ago. With no option for native push notifications on iOS, I decided to email players to notify them each time it was their turn in a game.

Despite my domain having full support for DKIM, SPF, and DMARC, the usual problems of email were still a huge pain: Some domains (I'm looking at you hotmail.com) considered everything spam. In some email clients, the design of the emails looked totally wrong. Some of the more active players complained (rightfully so) that their inbox was filling up with these emails.

Sadly, the overwhelming majority of games never got past one or two moves, in part because one of the two players didn't see the email that it was their turn.

So yes, it would really, really help small businesses like mine if Safari would catch up here!

Re: New WebKit features in Safari 15.4

#263

Post by avazhi » Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 2:47 PM UTC

skavi wrote: post #151

adam_arthur wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legit the only reason I don't use iPhone is due to being forced to use Safari (or Safari rendering engine wrapped)

Safari on iPhone is by far the fastest mobile browsing experience you can get. Are there extensions or web features you need that Safari doesn’t have?

Safari on my iPhone is basically unusable. Refreshes the page constantly; swipe back a page and it refreshes; scroll down long enough and it refreshes. Then there's Reddit - crashes constantly, literally will not load comments. It does this with and without extensions.

Re: New WebKit features in Safari 15.4

#264

Post by fleddr » Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 2:47 PM UTC

Jcowell wrote: post #256

fleddr wrote: post #242

Credit where credit is due: this is a rarely good release. Cynical me has observed this annual pattern where Apple just before their developer conference suddenly becomes "genuinely" interested in the web community and actively listens to feedback. Then, things get back to normal, which means they don't implement anything, all feedback goes to /dev/null, documentation is lacking and bugs are never solved. It's hard t…

> Cynical me has observed this annual pattern where Apple just before their developer conference suddenly becomes "genuinely" interested in the web community and actively listens to feedback. Then, things get back to normal, which means they don't implement anything, all feedback goes to /dev/null, documentation is lacking and bugs are never solved. This doesn’t make sense to me. Features takes time to discuss, roadm…

None of this is aimed at any individual Webkit developer. The state of Safari (stagnation and underinvestment) is on Apple, not on the team.

Apple not taking feedback or taking it and it being completely pointless is well documented behavior. This guy...

https://firt.dev/

...has basically been doing Apple's job for ages. Testing releases, documenting endless bugs, providing feedback, usually leading to absolutely nothing at all. Recently, he kept score from what was actually handled based on last year's feedback. It was close to nothing. Which is business as usual, it's like talking to a brick wall.

Things couldn't be more dramatically different with the Chrome team. When I register a bug there, I get feedback within hours. They will scrutinize it immediately and confirm if its reproducible or not. They will indicate if its per spec or not, refer to discussions and assign it to a group/member when it's a valid bug. If it's anything remotely serious, it's often solved within 2 releases, so within 12 weeks.

Further, one can directly interact with the Chrome team on Twitter and I regularly have long email conversations with them by personal email. They are accessible and take your feedback serious. Apple is the exact opposite.

As for Safari updates, they're usually meh. Small list of bug fixes and some web inspector improvements. Hence my remark that this is an unusually valuable release.

Re: New WebKit features in Safari 15.4

#265

Post by ezfe » Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 2:53 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #19

ezfe wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wipr blocks them for me

I use Wipr too, but it seems like a couple months ago, Google figured out how to get past it since I see shippable ads 50% or more of the time. I used to never see them.

It comes and goes - the Wipr guy does make a lot of tweaks pretty frequently, if you pull up his twitter

Re: New WebKit features in Safari 15.4

#266

Post by arilotter » Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 3:24 PM UTC

larsnystrom wrote: post #190

arilotter wrote: post #162

Aaaand they introduced WebGL bugs that broke our product, and iPhone users will experience these bugs until we can hack a workaround in, or until Apple acknowledges a bug report (that I have to make a minimal test case for and report, and haven't narrowed down yet), patches the issue in Safari, and decides if it's important enough to release as a 15.4.1 (which they probably won't, which means I'm stuck finding a work…

You can try replying to the tweet[1] asking developers to point to specific bugs in Safari and see if it gets their attention. [1] https://twitter.com/jensimmons/status/1491064075987873792

Here's my thread of all the problems I actively have with Safari, and I got no acknowledgement :) https://twitter.com/shmerbgo/status/1491442969370820610

Re: New WebKit features in Safari 15.4

#267

Post by arilotter » Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 3:26 PM UTC

enos_feedler wrote: post #166

arilotter wrote: post #162

Aaaand they introduced WebGL bugs that broke our product, and iPhone users will experience these bugs until we can hack a workaround in, or until Apple acknowledges a bug report (that I have to make a minimal test case for and report, and haven't narrowed down yet), patches the issue in Safari, and decides if it's important enough to release as a 15.4.1 (which they probably won't, which means I'm stuck finding a work…

I am sorry you have to go through this painful exercise. But, how would an alternative rendering engine fix this problem?

Our app uses an embedded WebView. An alternative rendering engine would mean we could pin a specific rendering engine version in our app, and only update it for everyone after we work out any kinks with a new version. The current policies mean that we have zero control over Apple shipping new bugs in under our users' feet.

Re: New WebKit features in Safari 15.4

#268

Post by arilotter » Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 3:29 PM UTC

AbacusAvenger wrote: post #167

arilotter wrote: post #162

Aaaand they introduced WebGL bugs that broke our product, and iPhone users will experience these bugs until we can hack a workaround in, or until Apple acknowledges a bug report (that I have to make a minimal test case for and report, and haven't narrowed down yet), patches the issue in Safari, and decides if it's important enough to release as a 15.4.1 (which they probably won't, which means I'm stuck finding a work…

Out of curiosity, what are the WebGL bugs you ran into?

I haven't made a minimal viable repro yet, but - our game renders perfectly on any iOS lower than 15.4, but on 15.4, this happens: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/913446741154611250/95...

Happens on latest Safari on MacOS, too: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/476502698066182179/95...

Re: New WebKit features in Safari 15.4

#269

Post by arilotter » Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 3:36 PM UTC

eyelidlessness wrote: post #187

arilotter wrote: post #162

Aaaand they introduced WebGL bugs that broke our product, and iPhone users will experience these bugs until we can hack a workaround in, or until Apple acknowledges a bug report (that I have to make a minimal test case for and report, and haven't narrowed down yet), patches the issue in Safari, and decides if it's important enough to release as a 15.4.1 (which they probably won't, which means I'm stuck finding a work…

> decides if it's important enough to release as a 15.4.1 (which they probably won't, which means I'm stuck finding a workaround) - or if it comes out in iOS 16, then a good chunk of our users will never get the fix I know people like to complain about Safari, but: 1. It’s absolutely common to ask developers for a minimal repro case in a bug report. 2. There are four major Safari releases under 15.x. 3. Apple OS upgr…

1. I absolutely agree, and will be making one to get this bug fixed. 2. All of which have different bugs :^) 3. My product's usage data disagrees. We've got plenty of users on old iOS versions - a really big chunk on iOS 14, for example.

I want Apple to stop restricting third-party browsers on iOS. MacOS Safari has the same WebGL bugs, but our game's Desktop client uses a WebView under our control & versioning that isn't Safari, and so doesn't have the bug.

If iOS had the same capabilities, I wouldn't care at all if Safari introduced bugs, since it wouldn't break our product.

This isn't the first, or second, or third time that Apple has shipped broken stuff in Safari on iOS which broke our product. I've been dealing with this for years, and it's not getting any better. I'm absolutely frustrated about this, but when I spend time honing in patches for Safari regressions & Safari just ships more regressions, it's hard not to be frustrated.

Re: New WebKit features in Safari 15.4

#270

Post by gsnedders » Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 3:45 PM UTC

jtbayly wrote: post #97

gsnedders wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That'll still be Safari 15.1, alas; 15.4 should be close to the experimental score shown.

Why haven't the stable versions 15.2 and 15.3 been tested? Will 15.4 be tested?

Uh, it's 15.3 that's being run, I just can't write the right number it turns out. (I honestly have no idea why I said 15.1!)

15.4 should show up in day or two, there's a bunch of latency in how those metrics are generated currently…