Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination • Hacker News Board

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#261

Post by dotancohen » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 11:44 AM UTC

cat_plus_plus wrote: post #200

root_axis wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite the increased chances of admission, black students make up a modest 5% of the (e.g.) Harvard student body compared to Asian students and white students at 13% and 40% respectively. Ultimately, I can't justify the idea of rejecting students based on race, but when I look at those demographics I just don't see much to get worked up about. From a more cynical angle the problem almost seems like "the total percen…

> It's unfortunate that a quality education is a finite pie. Good that it's not then? With modern technology, one can get started on ultra cheap automated courses (not necessarily just static lectures, can be interactive/VR experience like good computer games), coupled with one on one help from paid and volunteer tutors around the world. Than those who show potential can in due time be given access to expensive resea…

The current system was developed based on almost three thousand years' experience dealing with the finite resource that was education.

And if you think that the resource is no longer finite, then are you going to supply and maintain the hardware and infrastructure to provide everybody with an online computer? Are you going to translate the coursework and exams to their languages? Provide the electricity? Provide the meal in the childrens' bellies so that their mind could be on the classwork?

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#262

Post by sokoloff » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 11:47 AM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #226

beebmam wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can, absolutely. A lottery system for admissions.

Not sure if you're joking but it would be a heck of a lot more fair. Just have some sort of objective bar like SAT score, and then do a lottery. Then you don't have the "did we do enough for XYZ group", the RNG will simplify both decision making and justification. If there's x% of XYZ passing the minimum score, that's how many will be in your class.

And when you find that x% of XYZ passing the minimum score isn’t exactly the same x% of XYZ in the population, what then?

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#263

Post by JohnWhigham » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 11:50 AM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #24

bpodgursky wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"White adjacent" is a real term used non-ironically by (at least some) progressives to describe Asians and some Middle Eastern groups.

I was recently informed that the term BIPOC is for every non white person except south and east and southeast Asians. That one threw me for a loop. Perhaps there should just be a word for descendants of people with lower socioeconomic status/power/opportunities.

Perhaps there should just be a word for descendants of people with lower socioeconomic status/power/opportunities.

That'd be getting too close to the actual problem in society, we can't have that!

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#264

Post by hknapp » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 11:53 AM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #192

j7ake wrote: post #109

Would it be more fair to weight applicants by household income rather than race? For example, given two equally strong applicants, but one is from upper class and the other lower class, it seems clear that the lower class applicant is stronger, because they were able to achieve similarly with fewer resources.

The advantage of race is that it's not easily gamed. Using household income would incentivize families to try and minimize income in the years prior to college admission. Additionally, you'd have to deal with how income relates to cost of living (e.g. 100k in Alabama and coastal California aren't the same).

A lot of financial aid is income based. Is there evidence of families doing this currently?

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#265

Post by twic » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 11:56 AM UTC

fmajid wrote: post #207

root_axis wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite the increased chances of admission, black students make up a modest 5% of the (e.g.) Harvard student body compared to Asian students and white students at 13% and 40% respectively. Ultimately, I can't justify the idea of rejecting students based on race, but when I look at those demographics I just don't see much to get worked up about. From a more cynical angle the problem almost seems like "the total percen…

This discrimination is not to protect Black or Hispanic students from being outcompeted by Asians, it is there to protect Whites , just like anti-Jewish discrimination before WW2 when Jews were not considered white. Bringing Blacks and Hispanics into the conversation is a red herring used by elite universities to defend the indefensible. If you want to see what a truly meritocratic admissions policy would look like,…

I think universities are judged to some extent on class. There are statistics about how many Pell grant recipients they admit, i believe. But one consequence of that is that if you are just slightly too well-off to get a Pell grant, you have no chance, because admitting you won't boost the university's score.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#266

Post by lordnacho » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 11:57 AM UTC

technothrasher wrote: post #259

lordnacho wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if you're joking but it would be a heck of a lot more fair. Just have some sort of objective bar like SAT score, and then do a lottery. Then you don't have the "did we do enough for XYZ group", the RNG will simplify both decision making and justification. If there's x% of XYZ passing the minimum score, that's how many will be in your class.

But if there were racial disparities in your primary and secondary education systems which lowered the scores of some racial groups, then your supposedly objective "minimum score cutoff" would still be discriminatory.

Yes but then it's society's fault and you can't do anything about it and you have a reasonable explanation.

You can pour money into giving test prep help to disadvantaged groups and keep the headline, which is that fate decides among many who are worthy.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#267

Post by Hnrobert42 » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 12:01 PM UTC

jpgvm wrote: post #209

So they should. Anything other than an objective standardized test is just asking for bias. Australia gets by just fine with standardized testing only, don't see why America can't as well. If you make the cut then you can qualify for scholarships if you are disadvantaged because of means, etc. To be fair though Australia is overall more equal in terms of schooling outcomes but to pretend that it's a university/colleg…

So you believe standardized tests are unbiased, huh?

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#268

Post by insickness » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 12:07 PM UTC

lelanthran wrote: post #255

TulliusCicero wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ultimately, I can't justify the idea of rejecting students based on race, but when I look at those demographics I just don't see much to get worked up about. If you look at those particular stats, sure, it doesn't sound particularly objectionable. But if you look at others: https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/15/politics/harvard-affirmative-... > Under questioning from SFFA lawyer John Hughes, Fitzsimmons detailed some of…

> So, an individual Asian student needs to score much higher to have a chance at Harvard, compared to students of other ethnicities. That's very blatantly racial discrimination. > This amounts to, "sorry, we have enough people of your color, so we're gonna make it harder for you to get in." That's wrong. Period. "The law of unintended consequences" ... what are they going to do if the target demographic (in this case…

If you're saying that we should allow individuals and companies to create their own identity policies free from government oversight, then we should allow individuals and companies to discriminate any way they want. Don't want to hire blacks, gays or Jews? Allowed. To be honest, there is a legitimate argument that this type of discrimination would be better handled through the free market. But I doubt the people who support Asian discrimination in academia would support this.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#269

Post by Chris2048 » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 12:09 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #201

root_axis wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite the increased chances of admission, black students make up a modest 5% of the (e.g.) Harvard student body compared to Asian students and white students at 13% and 40% respectively. Ultimately, I can't justify the idea of rejecting students based on race, but when I look at those demographics I just don't see much to get worked up about. From a more cynical angle the problem almost seems like "the total percen…

> Ultimately, I can't justify the idea of rejecting students based on race, but when I look at those demographics I just don't see much to get worked up about. If you look at those particular stats, sure, it doesn't sound particularly objectionable. But if you look at others: https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/15/politics/harvard-affirmative-... > Under questioning from SFFA lawyer John Hughes, Fitzsimmons detailed some of…

> "sorry, we have enough people of your color

This is how US green card applications work too though.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#270

Post by lordnacho » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 12:09 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #262

lordnacho wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if you're joking but it would be a heck of a lot more fair. Just have some sort of objective bar like SAT score, and then do a lottery. Then you don't have the "did we do enough for XYZ group", the RNG will simplify both decision making and justification. If there's x% of XYZ passing the minimum score, that's how many will be in your class.

And when you find that x% of XYZ passing the minimum score isn’t exactly the same x% of XYZ in the population, what then?

"We didn't make the test. The bar is lower so more of every group passes. Fate decides who gets in, we don't add or remove anything based on legacy or donations etc."