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Thank You, Valve

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Re: Thank You, Valve

#261

Post by JamesMcMinn »

yepthatsreality wrote: post #127
JamesMcMinn wrote: post #58

I am very excited by the Steam Deck and have paid for my place in the queue (hopefully some time this year). I am a long time desktop Linux user, however I also game and have either had to dual boot, or more recently, game inside a Windows VM because of DRM and unsupported games. The biggest issue I can can see with the Steam Deck, or more specifically, Linux on the Steam Deck, is Microsoft's Game Pass. It simply wil…

First people complain that no one will use Linux because theirs no hardware. Then they complain they can’t use Linux because of the software support. We now have both and now people won’t use Linux because Microsoft acquired studio’s games will only run on Windows? That moving goal post doesn’t look good for the Switch or PlayStation platforms then.

I've used Linux as my daily driver for near enough 20 years at this point. I'm not arguing that people wont use Linux because Microsoft have bought some studios, I'm arguing that they might not use Linux on a device designed specifically for gaming if they can't play games using services that they've already paid for.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#262

Post by fareesh »

As a consumer, Valve comes across like Google. They build products and features and then they often sit untouched, sometimes for years. They are terrible at communicating to their playerbase and even their contracted talent.

The DOTA2 community has had to deal with these aspects of Valve for years. CS:GO is now also essentially a forgotten project, and within the span of just a couple of months, the FPS crowd is moving on to other newcomer games.

This might be armchair speculation but it seems like since Google is making so much money from ads and Valve is making so much money from Steam, that their projects don't really get the kind of management and focus from the organization that is mutually compatible with the other stakeholders - customers, players, tournament organizers, businesses, etc. These are drops in the ocean compared to their real revenue streams.

I guess as far as this particular story is concerned, I wouldn't be surprised if Valve just abandoned this project at some point too once it's launched, and moved on to something else. At least in this case they've done a great amount of work for open-source which is fantastic because others can build on their contributions. I don't really expect these aspects of the culture at Valve to change in this regard, as frustrating as it is from the outside, I'm sure it makes a lot more sense from the inside.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#263

Post by moffkalast »

zulban wrote: post #195
Vermeulen wrote: post #31

As a game dev it surprises me the constant push from some Linux players to still make a native Linux version, considering how good Valve's Proton layer is. I don't think they understand that while making a new Linux build can be trivial (in Unity), dealing with all the support issues for that isn't. I don't have time to track down audio issues for some random Linux version for 0.001% of players Yet if I say I'll only…

Linux users write the best bug reports. This may interest you: "38% of my bug reports come from the Linux community" https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/qeqn3b/despite_hav... Also, any decently complex commercial game has a long ongoing list of bugs. If you feel overwhelmed by an obscure bug from one user, you probably just need better issue tracking.

How many of those bugs are only linux-specific I wonder.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#264

Post by deadbunny »

dncornholio wrote: post #86

Thanks Valve, indeed. But no, 2022 will also not be the year of the Linux desktop. I compare Wine with ductape. It works but don't ask how. It's fine for casual gamers, but these are few. The year of the Linux desktop will only come when all the developers treat Linux as a native compilation target. When Linux has all the drivers. As long as games get "emulated" on Windows in Linux, people will always choose Windows.

And how do you get to a big enough market share to become a default compilation target? I'd argue that Wine/Proton are a bridge to that.

If you can make every game available on Linux via wine/proton then you would have to assume that every one of the Windows holdouts (Ok, most. Some people always find excuses) will swap to Linux as their primary machine, you can then, with reasonable confidence say "Linux has X marketshare" and then make a decision on whether that is worth your development time.

I just don't think that marketshare is going to be anywhere near what it would require to become a default target and I say that as a die hard linux user.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#265

Post by BoorishBears »

0xedd wrote: post #186
rafale wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The setup makes it impractical. You would need a very powerful computer to run it in real time. And it won't tell you about what u can't see. You would need to do the same for audio and game mechanics. Check what a top player can do: https://youtu.be/8Qf5Xlty1Cg I doubt an AI will be anywhere close in the next 10 years.

Too much ego, friend. You should've used the past tense. Skill tunable AI, developed by a private poorly funded group, that plays the game for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=revk5r5vqxA AlphaStar, developed by a large corp, mopping the floor with Battle.Net's Starcraft 2 players https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1zhmGPmAAM OpenAI, developed by a large corp, beats top DotA2 team https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfb…

I like to think this crowd is above typical streamer hysteria, but I guess not?

AlphaStar and OpenAI have nothing to do with the conversation here, right off the bat.

This video is so cringey too with random burps and "skynet" references. The external hosting is not related at all to the "soft" cheating, and that in turn has nothing to do with AI. Packet sniffing vs OpenCV vs Tensorflow for finding a head is not a meaningful difference.

Years ago, and I mean years ago cheat developers were building this type of "soft aim" cheats that don't snap.

And the separate input via controller _is_ detectable if this becomes enough of an issue... your "AI" is generating input and it often will generate input that controllers wouldn't. Because the "AI" is ML and only being applied to finding on screen targets.

-

Making a second model to generate realistic input would be a whole other achievement no one has even bothered with because... they don't need to.

On-host hacking is rampant and these games can't seem to stop it, so no one has bothered.

I'd be for kernel-level anti-cheat if it actually worked, but script kiddies are beating this "kernel level anti-cheat" handily.

To me the answer is boring simple statistical analysis, increasing the cost of recovering from bans, etc...

But that doesn't sound as sexy so I guess we can keep this farce of a cat and mouse game going.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#266

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

yepthatsreality wrote: post #218
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, there are a lot of reasons not to use Linux still, just because Valve solved a few of them doesn't make any of the others illegitimate. I mean, christ, the desktop user experience is still pretty goddamned terrible, and the only reason I'm personally considering switching in the near future is that Microsoft is working hard to make Windows even worse.

Plasma has given me everything I could need. For 80% of people that’s going to be a web browser. Outside of that I had no problems migrating my work flows to Linux native apps. There are plenty.

> For 80% of people that’s going to be a web browser.

Why do some people think this is a point in Linux Desktop's favor? Anyone who just needs a web browser could use ChromeOS. Those of us who use a desktop for other things have legitimate criticisms and this is an unfair (and lazy) dismissal.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#267

Post by delecti »

Rooster61 wrote: post #28

I dig most of this article, and I do applaud the work Valve is doing for the Linux gaming ecosystem, but I draw a line at supporting kernel level anti-cheat drivers. That trend in gaming bothers me to no end, and I refuse to knowingly install a game that features one. The presence of 15 year old script kiddies using aimbots does NOT IN ANY WAY justify having kernel level control over my machine, Linux or otherwise. V…

> and I refuse to knowingly install a game that features one

Yes, and that's the decision you have available to you. I would make the same decision, but I still think the developers are smart to put those kernel level anti-cheat schemes in their games. I don't do much multiplayer gaming anyway, but when I have, rampant cheating entirely ruins the experience.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#268

Post by Majestic121 »

moffkalast wrote: post #263
zulban wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux users write the best bug reports. This may interest you: "38% of my bug reports come from the Linux community" https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/qeqn3b/despite_hav... Also, any decently complex commercial game has a long ongoing list of bugs. If you feel overwhelmed by an obscure bug from one user, you probably just need better issue tracking.

How many of those bugs are only linux-specific I wonder.

Good thing it's the third paragraph of the link provided then.

> Wrong. Bugs exist whenever you know about them, or not.

> Do you know how many of these 400 bug reports were actually platform-specific? 3. Literally only 3 things were problems that came out just on Linux. The rest of them were affecting everyone - the thing is, the Linux community is exceptionally well trained in reporting bugs. That is just the open-source way. This 5.8% of players found 38% of all the bugs that affected everyone. Just like having your own 700-person strong QA team. That was not 38% extra work for me, that was just free QA!

Re: Thank You, Valve

#269

Post by theshrike79 »

yepthatsreality wrote: post #222
ekianjo wrote: post #213

Recently there has been 250 titles verified for the upcoming Steam Deck: https://boilingsteam.com/top-10-new-games-you-can-play-on-li... While not technically "a console" it's still one of the best line-up ever for a new hardware launch, and it's probably going to be in thousands later this month.

It already is thousands but the games just need to go through Valve hardware vetting. AppDB (WINE) and ProtonDB will give a better picture at what’s possible.

Valve vetting is also about the controls being usable for the Steam Deck, not just the fact that it runs.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#270

Post by cinntaile »

zentiggr wrote: post #255
cinntaile wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it matter if you built the computer with your own hands? It's sad that we need invasive anticheat but if that's what it takes to get a somewhat cheater free gaming environment I am ok with that. I'll take that over ruined games by cheaters any day of the week.

Until some overly agressive anti-cheat that has kernel level access, decides to blacklist your machine, and because of whatever black boxed bugs, blocks your machine's Ethernet connections, all of them, and now you're stuck until you reimage and remove that borked kernel, except that they implemented an IME level code chunk that immediately downloads the anti-cheat code on the IME channel, and now your machine can ne…

It sounds like you know more about how these work than I do so I'll assume it can happen. It's a risk to consider for sure. I obviously don't want this to happen to me, but I'll still take this major inconvenience that a few individuals might suffer from over cheaters in game that everyone playing the game suffers from. I'm talking cheating in multiplayer games to be clear. I guess I'll get downvoted again, but I'll take those downvotes in stride.
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