Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 484 posts

Re: Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

#261

Post by philliphaydon »

tombh wrote: post #232
ChrisClark wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be attacking Western governments assuming we want to defend them? Our identity it's not tied to our governments, unlike you, we criticize them ALL the time. They do horrible things, but because a Western government has done horrible things doesn't mean China gets to do it too. We are not attacking you as a Chinese citizen, we are attacking the governments who do wrong. This comment chain is specifically a…

It seems you may think I'm Chinese? I'm actually 100% British. I think something to bear in mind with the topic of comparing the West and China is that they aren't actually 2 independent entities that have now come of age, each imposing its unique stamp on the world. What China is today is fundamentally defined by European colonialism. Chinese culture is actually thousands of years older than European culture, and fo…

I’m unsure how you can justify the present based on what happened in the past. It just sounds like you’re making excuses for justification.

China has a long history colonialism, just like pretty much any other empire in history. So unsure how you can claim they don’t have colonial nature.

Re: Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

#262

Post by kbelder »

jollybean wrote: post #28
rg111 wrote: post #17

China has got a massive consumer market, an unmatched manufacturing ecosystem with zero labor disputes among other things, minerals, arguably the most stable (in terms of violence, unrest, strikes, etc.) regions in the world, and more. They have got anyone by their balls who remotely wants to sell anything in China. John Cena (famous wrestler, entertainer) recently apologized to Chinese people after calling Taiwan a…

Surprisingly, there are a lot of strikes, labour issues, and general unrest in China. Instead of thinking about it like a 'Orwellian State' - think of it more like an Orwellian State that could go 'off' at anytime. Note that citizens are concerned about their prosperity - as long as growth is happening and money comes in - they are content. But they are also ultra nationalist and ultra ethnocentric to the point where…

I have a sinking feeling that something horrible is going to hit China in, say, the next two-three decades. Not sure whether it'll be a cultural shift, economic collapse, but I think the way they're structured once it starts to falter it's going to explode in a really unpleasant way. Like exceeding Mao-level deaths.

The West is messier, in a lot of ways, but I think they're more fault-tolerant.

Re: Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

#264

Post by AnimalMuppet »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #18

It's interesting to see that people on both sides are angry -- for different reasons. People on western Internet are angry at Intel for having issued an apology. People on Chinese Internet are angry because they view it as a non-apology, i.e. Intel still goes ahead with the ban. I see people -- including Chinese diaspora -- calling for banning Intel.

Personally, I'm angry at Intel for not having actual convictions.

It looks like they're doing the ban, not because they actually believe that there's slave labor in Xinjiang, but because their stockholders will be mad if they don't. And they issued the apology, not because they realized that there is no slave labor in Xinjiang, but because they don't want China angry at them. They're trying to just get on with being a business. (And to some degree that's fair. Intel is a business, not a moral crusader. Still, I'd like them to either take a stand, or not take a stand. Don't try to "take a stand" just to make people happy.)

("Angry" is too strong a word. "Disappointed" might be better. But I said "angry" to match the wording of the parent.)

Re: Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

#265

Post by ncmncm »

bscphil wrote: post #228
viktorcode wrote: post #56

[flagged]

I disagree. They genuinely don't believe it is genocide. There's even international disagreement about the proper characterization of it. Most countries sufficiently propagandize their own citizens to inoculate them against the view that their own actions represent crimes against humanity, regardless of how they come to be viewed decades or centuries later. I don't think the core of your idea is wrong though. The dis…

The US incarcerates many, many more than China, as a much higher fraction of its population. Probably at least as many are on no better pretext, and are similarly exploited for prison labor.

Thus, a boycott-US movement would be (also!) justified, but better would be to check on practices and boycott specific companies that do not take particular care not to rely on prison labor in any country. That is more work, but supporting liberty everywhere is always going to be very hard work. However much, it is worth doing.

I type this posting on a phone. We are all almost as complicit as we can be.

Re: Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

#266

Post by ncmncm »

mike_d wrote: post #27
1cvmask wrote: post #5

Should we demand that companies avoid California suppliers as well because of the extensive use of prison labor: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-10-11/californ... https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/policing/2020/11/11/c... https://www.freedomunited.org/news/forced-prison-labor-in-ca...

In the United States prisoners are required to participate in "work duties," which are defined as essential functions of the prison. For example you can be made to wash laundry because you are using bed sheets and clothing. You cannot be forced into doing external work where the benefit of your labor falls to a private entity. Of course you can choose to do so and the primary benefit is not the wages (which are unfai…

That is just so far from true it is hard to understand why you believe it.

There are states that have such rules, and others (particularly in the South) that explicitly do not enforce any such rule. Often a rule exists but is meaningless; if they want to be able to have visitors, or to get outside to exercise, they are obliged to engage with outside labor.

Re: Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

#267

Post by joveian »

smhenderson wrote: post #169
pjmlp wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can start by not buying anything Made In China as much as possible, however I fail to ever see that happening, as most are quick to forget their morals when it hits their wallets.

It's also become increasingly difficult, and in some cases nigh impossible, to avoid items from China. I'm older and don't need a lot beyond the food and shelter I work for, I have plenty of "stuff". But buying clothing, gifts, electronics, well, the list is long and I won't try to cover everything here, that doesn't have at least part of it's assembly provided by China is not easy to avoid. It's not just people's wa…

I agree that legislative and corporate support would be helpful, however in my experience the only pretending is that more than a small number of people care. Look at your own post - on the one hand, you would be financially supporting genocide, on the other hand you want to buy gifts. That this is even a question is sign of where things really stand and I think you are putting more effort into it than most people. See also how many people aren't willing to take minor precautions to avoid killing their own family members.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendigo

Re: Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

#268

Post by ncmncm »

cletus wrote: post #66
1cvmask wrote: post #5

Should we demand that companies avoid California suppliers as well because of the extensive use of prison labor: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-10-11/californ... https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/policing/2020/11/11/c... https://www.freedomunited.org/news/forced-prison-labor-in-ca...

Prison labour is the unfortunate exception to the Thirteenth Amendment that allowed effective slavery to continue. The whole system is corrupt. It allows prisons to pay prisoners peanuts (~25 cents/hour) and pocket the difference giving an economic incentive to incarceration and an unfair competitive advantage with people who can't choose not to work because doing so will generally extend their sentence. But you know…

Chinese treatment of underclass people is evil. US treatment of underclass people is evil. The statements are not in conflict.

We have much less excuse for permitting our own evils, because we could put a stop to ours if we cared.

Re: Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

#269

Post by ncmncm »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #179
breakfastduck wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes of course it is. You're being forced to do it or end up in prison. How is that not forced? It's essentially a choice between 1 option at that point.

You earned the prison. Is it somehow better to remove the option and just lock you up? Negative prison time, applied to a legitimate sentence, should never count as forcing.

You pretend to be unaware of false arrest, fabricated evidence, bad representation, and over-sentencing of underclass people.

US citizens are not uniquely criminal, but US incarceration rate is by far highest in the world. You don't get there justly.

Re: Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

#270

Post by TakuYam »

ncmncm wrote: post #257
spaetzleesser wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Or I should just actually get a $300 waffle maker instead of something stupid that will probably break after a few runs" I did this for a while but a lot of US manufacturers seem to like producing low quality items for a high price under the label "Made in USA".

"Made in USA" is often code for "made with prison labor". Louisiana is said to make a point of incarcerating particularly black citizens on made-up charges and excessive sentencing to maintain a ready prison labor pool. So, it is probably important to verify that such products are not from prison labor. China has is rightly criticized for unjustified incarceration, particularly in Xinjiang, but the US incarcerates ma…

That’s an incredibly serious claim to make, do you have evidence to support your claims?
Post reply on HN