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Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

reuters.com

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Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#261

Post by acomjean »

commandlinefan wrote: post #211

Wow... I thought it was just tinfoil hat types that were avoiding this vaccine because they were afraid Bill Gates was using it to implant a tracking chip inside them. But if healthcare workers - who actually know what's in this thing - are so vaccine-hesitant that the government has to mandate it to them, I'm suddenly worried whether or not I should think twice about getting a booster (or worse, giving it to my chil…

I work near hospitals. You'd be surprised how many staff are outside on break smoking..

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#262

Post by _fat_santa »

shantnutiwari wrote: post #226
commandlinefan wrote: post #211

Wow... I thought it was just tinfoil hat types that were avoiding this vaccine because they were afraid Bill Gates was using it to implant a tracking chip inside them. But if healthcare workers - who actually know what's in this thing - are so vaccine-hesitant that the government has to mandate it to them, I'm suddenly worried whether or not I should think twice about getting a booster (or worse, giving it to my chil…

As a Britisher, is there an ELI5 explanation on why so many Americans are opposed to the vaccination, even educated people working in healthcare? It all seems very bizarre to me...

The problem that so many have is that the mandates completely ignore other ways to gain immunity and the fact that not everyone can get the vaccine. Right now the one single line from the government is "Everyone should get vaccinated, it's safe an effective".

To anyone paying attention it's obvious that this is not the case. Everyone should not get vaccinated, some folks can't get the vaccine. And not it's not safe and effective for everyone, some have had a bad reaction.

It would be one thing if the government realized this and placed reasonable exceptions for those who either can't get it or don't need to because they have natural immunity or immunity through monoclonal antibodies. But they don't and they continue to push this one way of getting immunity.

And that's where the distrust forms. More and more it seems that the government doesn't actually give a damn about these edge cases, all they want to do is check the box that says you have been vaccinated.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#263

Post by kelnos »

odessacubbage wrote: post #200
gopalv wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Jobs have requirements Most of the argument is whether this requirement is in the "employee must wash hands before surgery" category, which is about the patients' right to be safe not the employee's (in theory the patients didn't "choose" to be there). The people complaining are reacting as if the ruling sounds like "male high school teachers get vasectomies, to keep teenage pregnancies down", because the effects a…

>checklists have always existed this is also the first time where the vaccine industry and the broader public health space have been put under this kind of scrutiny and the combination of politicization, outright lies and deception over masks and policy in both directions and the overall visibility of the sausage making process happens to be occurring alongside a decline of trust in institutional expertise. when most…

I don't think you can argue that it's the medical profession's fault that this issue has become politicized without acknowledging that the GOP deserves most of the blame here.

Nearly every common-sense measure implemented during this pandemic has been derided by the right as some sort of unacceptable infringement on individual rights.

Not saying those in power have gotten it all right 100% of the time; I'm especially disappointed with the mask fiasco you mention, but... c'mon. Doctors are not acting as "political agents" in the vast majority of situations that have caused the US's pandemic response to be as lacking as it's been.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#264

Post by DSMan195276 »

bko wrote: post #160
DSMan195276 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no mechanism to enforce this reasoning. It's whether the agency has the power to do it or not. For instance it could be argued that natural immunity is far superior to vaccines, so excluding healthcare workers with natural immunity from working is not about protecting patients. I'm not sure what you're getting at, Congress gave the agency the power to set guidelines for requirements for caring for medicaid/…

>> It seems to me like you just don't think medicare or medicaid should be a thing to begin with. Please don't ascribe beliefs or intentions to me that I didn't explicitly state. > Why should my tax dollars to go a healthcare provider who doesn't want to get the vaccine when that money can go to one who will? Medicare and Medicaid should be fee for treatment. Why shouldn't I be allowed to choose what provider I want…

> Why shouldn't I be allowed to choose what provider I want to visit for the same treatment? They can have different covid policies, much like schools do. I don't think it should be a federal issue.

You can, by paying for it yourself :P

> You're mistaking treatment for safety protocols. A health care provider can have a certain doctor to nurse ratio or a million other things and they may not all be "optimal" as defined by the powers that be. We should allow people to choose what health care provider is right for them based on their constraints and not restrict options.

I see what you're saying but I think it's an odd distinction, treatment outcomes and safety protocols are clearly linked, why should tax dollars go to treatment provided with substandard safety protocols when the same can be spent for better treatment elsewhere? Functionally it would just end up costing us and the program more over time and lead to worse outcomes. The other issue here is that most patients aren't even going to know enough about the various things you listed to make an informed opinion about them.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#265

Post by not2b »

dang wrote: post #222
not2b wrote: post #147

Please fix the headline to match the one on the article. The Hacker News headline is deeply misleading, because vaccine mandates imposed by US states and cities are not affected by this court action.

Fixed now. (Submitted title was "Courts block Covid vaccine mandates for healthcare workers nationwide")

Thanks.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#266

Post by CollinEMac »

throwaway4220 wrote: post #215
bko wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. It is a political decision to force 2 million Americans to get a vaccine that they don't want under threat of not being allowed to work in their profession. If you disagree with the decision at least you can vote the bastards out. You're acting like its a trivial procedural matter. These people obviously feel very strongly about it since they're under immense pressure everywhere to get it and they still r…

If fewer people dying/getting sick is a political goal, then more people dying/getting sick so that the current administration gets voted out can also be a political goal. I'm not a fan of the situation, but you're acting like it's forced sterilization. It's just a vaccine with a very safe profile. For God's sake, all healthcare workers including the cleaning staff have to get flu shots and show their immunizations e…

>For God's sake, all healthcare workers including the cleaning staff have to get flu shots and show their immunizations every year, or they can't work. Even as a college student I had to get a meningitis shot.

The difference is that those examples aren't mandated by the federal government (as far as I know). I think most people are fine with companies and universities requiring people to be vaccinated.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#267

Post by kansface »

javagram wrote: post #260
kansface wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bodily autonomy is perhaps the central tenant of liberty. There is plenty of room to be for vaccines and against (federal) mandates.

Why reference federal mandates if your argument is bodily autonomy? That would equally apply to state and corporate mandates.

People have remedy of sorts in the case of a functioning local market. If some employer requires you to get vaccines and you aren't in to that, you can work somewhere else. If a state has requirements you don't like, you could potentially leave that state. Its different when its the federal government giving the mandate and it covers the entirety of your industry.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#268

Post by kelnos »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #220
yissp wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having had an abortion doesn't affect your ability to safely do your job. Being unvaccinated does.

How about if it's the 1960s, and you're a flight attendant, and "being sexy" is semi-officially part of your job. And your job is requiring you to get an abortion (which is still illegal in the US, and so you're going to have to go to Sweden to get it). And if you won't, well, nobody's making you - you can get a different job. This is, as far as I can see, the most directly analogous situation. Those who support vacc…

If you truly believe that these situations are comparable, I don't think I could expect you to engage in good-faith discussion.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#269

Post by BoxOfRain »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #12
0xB31B1B wrote: post #7

Garbage ruling from the least democratic branch of government in the US. The whole project of "dismantling the administrative state" of which this decision rolls up to is absolutely insane in 2021 and will lead this country to a path of ruin. This decision is part of a much larger play by Federalist Society judges to remove the ability of our government to do virtually anything.

>Garbage ruling from the least democratic branch of government in the US. Is... that meant to be a bad thing? Yes, judicial branch should not be directly accountable to voters. In fact, as a Canadian, I find the idea of electing judges to be so thoroughly strange that it almost defies belief. Why the hell would you want your judicial branch to be "democratic", as in directly and immediately beholden to the whims of t…

>In fact, as a Canadian, I find the idea of electing judges to be so thoroughly strange that it almost defies belief. Why the hell would you want your judicial branch to be "democratic", as in directly and immediately beholden to the whims of the mob?

As a Briton I agree. It's also why I'm quite sceptical of the concrete benefits of a directly elected House of Lords and the replacement of the monarchy with a presidential system which are popular ideas in some political circles. I'm no fan ideologically of the trappings of a landed gentry and there's plenty of room for heavy reforms there but having a strictly apolitical head of state and a semi-technocratic oversight body has its advantages. Democracy isn't necessarily measured by the amount of government positions which are directly or indirectly elected - there's more nuances than that.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#270

Post by afarrell »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #12
0xB31B1B wrote: post #7

Garbage ruling from the least democratic branch of government in the US. The whole project of "dismantling the administrative state" of which this decision rolls up to is absolutely insane in 2021 and will lead this country to a path of ruin. This decision is part of a much larger play by Federalist Society judges to remove the ability of our government to do virtually anything.

>Garbage ruling from the least democratic branch of government in the US. Is... that meant to be a bad thing? Yes, judicial branch should not be directly accountable to voters. In fact, as a Canadian, I find the idea of electing judges to be so thoroughly strange that it almost defies belief. Why the hell would you want your judicial branch to be "democratic", as in directly and immediately beholden to the whims of t…

Agreed. The judiciary should be the least accountable and most transparent branch of government.
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