Writing software != Selling software
If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?
261–270 of 276 posts
Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?
#262Earlier quoted context omitted.
Indeed. I'm a 41-year-old developer and have spent most of my career working in university research departments. Just a grown-up amongst grown-ups. I had an interview the other day with a start-up whose HR department and developer-interviewers insisted on talking about the "free lunches" they provide. I mean, when it came to question time for me they actually asked whether I wanted to know anything else about the lun…
Exactly. "TANSTAAFL" :) Now, I'm not against free lunches. In a large enough group, I think it's a nice thing to offer - you get a variety of stuff you might not otherwise cook for yourself, communal eating is fun sometimes (not all the time), etc. But... as a stated 'benefit' that you know is being offered in lieu of extra cash... not sure that sways me.
Yes, free lunches are fine, and communal eating thing much of the week would work well for me and no doubt for the team's performance. If I was told we each together a few times a week, that would be hugely important. As it was, I tend to imagine individuals scurrying to the kitchen, and taking a boxed meal from the fridge back to their desk while they're still working. I should have asked which of these actually happened.
Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?
#263Earlier quoted context omitted.
My wife is a physician, so let me chime in. It's not so much a hazing ritual but a very carefully constructed mentorship program. It's intense, and in some cases maybe overly so, but the goal is to immerse them into the environment, and to provide a lot of experience, while being carefully supervised by more experienced doctors. After three years of this, you come out really knowing you stuff. In software, we don't r…
Perhaps we will, once that software development has as much history and tradition as medicine does.
Don't we, to a small degree already? They are called implementations. Often over promised, under-staffed and under-scheduled time-wise. Long hours are spent, a truckload is learned, experience is gained, etc. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a 3-year limit.
Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?
#264Earlier quoted context omitted.
Genuinely curious: “I respect people who came to programming 'for the money' rather than because of being interested” Why?
Until last year I was a programmer of pure heart, that would despise perspective of working 09:00-17:00 as a programmer, and then go home and 'have a life'. Programming for me was, and still is, a creative art and a tool to solve problems worth solving. However, since then I started working and actually earning money for my expenses, instead of relying on parents, and this pretty much shifted my perspective. You need…
Sorry I only just got round to reading your reply. What you say is interesting and all but hazy. What is your actual reason for respecting them other than the fact that you acknowledge there might be reasons for their decision? To my mind that doesn’t warrant respect, but the suspension of judgement until you have more information.
Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?
#265Earlier quoted context omitted.
"There is a concentration of tech startups in SV because the internet lets them sell to the rest of the country without issue." I don't think so. If the Internet was all that was needed to explain this concentration, then that would not be a sufficient explanation because it would prompt a new question. If geographical proximity was due to the Internet, then why Silicon Valley vs some other location? I think that it…
I agree with most of what you are saying. However, SV still generates a smaller fraction of millionaires than most people in the tech world might think. Around 200,000 Americans made over a million dollars last year and most of them took fewer risks than the classic raman profitable startup does. A tiny fraction of startups generate billionaires but when you start looking at expected payout and risk it's harder to ju…
I think (and have no evidence to support this whatsoever) that the temperate climate may factor in to the concentration of bootstrapped ventures in SV as well.
My logic is that homelessness in somewhere like Juno Alaska would be FAR worse than being homeless in the Valley, so in that sense, a bootstrapped Valley startup with a short runway is more risk averse than that same startup somewhere with more extreme temperatures.
Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?
#266Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'd like to add another point to this: in the case of doctors, you've also got to include the various types of doctors. (As the son of a general practitioner, I'm particularly sensitive about this.) General practitioners make wildly less than the various specialists which abound in the medical profession. Now, GPs can certainly make a good living; in rich areas >$200,000 a year isn't uncommon. At the same time, for,…
Why does medicine have the hazing ritual known as residency?
That's actually fairly common in fields where mistakes can be dangerous. Most places refer to it as apprenticeship, but it's fairly common in even less glamorous trades like electrical work, carpentry, etc.
Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?
#267Earlier quoted context omitted.
Until last year I was a programmer of pure heart, that would despise perspective of working 09:00-17:00 as a programmer, and then go home and 'have a life'. Programming for me was, and still is, a creative art and a tool to solve problems worth solving. However, since then I started working and actually earning money for my expenses, instead of relying on parents, and this pretty much shifted my perspective. You need…
Sorry I only just got round to reading your reply. What you say is interesting and all but hazy. What is your actual reason for respecting them other than the fact that you acknowledge there might be reasons for their decision? To my mind that doesn’t warrant respect, but the suspension of judgement until you have more information.
Respect to a human being in general? I try to give it by default, unless someone works really hard to loose it.
Maybe you're right about that, phrasing it as 'suspension of judgement' is more accurate. I used to treat 'programming just for money' as disrespectful; now I assign to it the default value of respect I assign to everything else that I don't give special considerations.
Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?
#268Earlier quoted context omitted.
Engineering, done right, is an invisible art... The objects become famous, not us. I think that is the exact type of thinking the thread starter wishes would change. Why is that the case? Why don't we exalt those who created such great things that we take for granted. And further more wouldn't we be better off as country if we did?
Why don't we exalt those who created such great things that we take for granted? Because there are too many of them. Look around you. The objects you can currently see or touch have been built though the effort of, literally, tens of thousands of people. My MacBook alone is the work of a small city's worth of designers, engineers, techs, modelers, miners, carpenters, accountants, physicists, chemists, machinists, arc…
I like your points so I will compliment the mechanical fish ;)
To bring it back to the OP's point with your perspective, we should then not attempt to make the designers famous but rather highlight the importance, fun and satisfaction that is their craft.
We all appreciate what the designers make, but we don't spend much time exalting the designers. I don't think the OP necessarily wants all of them famous, just like we don't sit around talking about various primary care physicians. We do tell our kids that they can grow up to be those doctors though. I'm of the opinion that the next generation of parents could be telling their kids that they can build anything they want when they grow up. Something that legos drove home to me, but I consider myself lucky enough to be in a family that encouraged such thinking and could provide the tools for me to explore it.
Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?
#269Programming is art. And artist usually don't get paid too well. Artists either have to be entrepreneurial or very good at their craft in order to get rich.
Like most arts, programming can be learnt by yourself without any teacher, but there are also schools, universities and books for it, if you want to know more about the background and history.
Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?
#270There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into: The core of your argument is entitled whining. Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up…
Top lawyers aren't paid the most because
they know the law the best; that's ancillary.
They're paid big bucks because they win money
for their clients, prevent their clients from losing
money and build networks to people that have
money to give them.