Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time • Hacker News Board

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#261

Post by lowbloodsugar » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 9:20 PM UTC

d23 wrote: post #186

cphoover wrote: post #182

I'm tired of having to learn yet another templating language without a very compelling reason. Why do I have to learn, what is essentially, a new programming language for each of these frameworks (Angular, Svelte, Vue, React... Do I really need to learn yet another language construct for stuff like `loops`, `if/else`, event handlers...etc. Why must all of these frameworks re-invent the wheel? At least with React it i…

As a backend guy who moved away from frontend long ago for these very reasons, I have to ask: why are people downvoting this? Is it wrong? I'm genuinely asking, because from a bystander's point of view, it certainly seems like the pattern of the Framework Du Jour hasn't really slowed down much in the frontend community.

Didn't downvote either. Almost consider upvoting for visibility of the hilarity displayed.

"There are too many frameworks! Why does everyone keep re-inventing the wheel? Why can't everyone just use the one that I like?"

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#262

Post by Tarks » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 9:20 PM UTC

cphoover wrote: post #182

I'm tired of having to learn yet another templating language without a very compelling reason. Why do I have to learn, what is essentially, a new programming language for each of these frameworks (Angular, Svelte, Vue, React... Do I really need to learn yet another language construct for stuff like `loops`, `if/else`, event handlers...etc. Why must all of these frameworks re-invent the wheel? At least with React it i…

Agreed, I thought we were past this with the 4th generation of these frameworks, this is like knockoutjs all over again.

The moment the penny dropped for me was when I read something like this about React:

"We realised that inventing our own Yet Another Binding Language that was less expressive than javascript was harder and worse than doing the work to put the relatively simple HTML constructs into Javascript"

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#263

Post by pjungwir » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 9:20 PM UTC

Keats wrote: post #23

gavinray wrote: post #15

Well, this is awesome -- but fuck me: Vue is the only major player not under the Vercel umbrella now, haha. Looks like I might have to phone in half a decade of experience. Svelte is close enough to Vue with "script setup" mode anyways, the major difference is whether your logic/keywords go INSIDE the HTML tags or OUTSIDE. Svelte doesn't support JSX/TSX though =(

> Svelte doesn't support JSX/TSX though =( You have https://www.solidjs.com/ that does

I've been using Solidjs the last month for a project, and I really like it. Small bundle size, super fast, not much to learn, not too much magic, lots of control. Basically instead of having a vdom the framework is able to track finer-grained reactive sites and update those when the data changes.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#264

Post by Drew_ » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 9:22 PM UTC

kall wrote: post #230

hijodelsol wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me Vue 3 with get's pretty close to pure JavaScript/TypeScript. 90% of the code will be exactly like JS code, the only difference being the use of computed(), ref() and reactive() to achieve (something JS simply doesn't provide but is necessary for every non-trivial application). Your HTML code and CSS code are not mixed with JS and look and feel like the real thing as well. Other than the reactivity indication a…

Are we still taking about vue ? I don‘t see how that is any way close to html when it has: custom conditional and loop syntax and semantics, arbitrary js expressions and a unique concept of scope?

It does have extra non-native features but the overarching

format for single file components is plain HTML which makes it feel closer to vanilla than React.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#265

Post by jitix » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

cphoover wrote: post #182

I'm tired of having to learn yet another templating language without a very compelling reason. Why do I have to learn, what is essentially, a new programming language for each of these frameworks (Angular, Svelte, Vue, React... Do I really need to learn yet another language construct for stuff like `loops`, `if/else`, event handlers...etc. Why must all of these frameworks re-invent the wheel? At least with React it i…

I used to be full stack before the re-invention of wheel phenomenon got way out of hand in the js world. Keeping up with what’s going on with the ecosystem and employing the best practices became a huge chore that took time away from solving actual business problems.

Turning away from front end let me concentrate time on learning devops, cloud, ml and other things that aren’t as volatile in terms of design patterns and that lets me design more high level solutions to problems and create more overall value.

Maybe people just differ in how wide or deep information they could handle but I certainly can’t keep up with such a wide array of patterns and tools that do the same thing.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#266

Post by jayflux » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

spoils19 wrote: post #214

SparkyMcUnicorn wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't downvote, but I'll speak to my experience. First off, you don't have to go learning every framework out there. Pick one and stick with it, or just go vanilla. That said, The features these frameworks provide gives a boost in productivity that far outweighs the low learning curve. My pick was VueJS and I'm very happy with it. Using Single File Components is pretty similar to vanilla HTML/JS/CSS. Beginners tha…

Frontend developers like to change frameworks every week it seems like, so it's in my best interest to learn every framework (or at least some abstracted part of it) in order to stay employable and up-to-date. The problem is that each framework has their own abstraction and language that you have to learn. Compare it to "old-school" Java frameworks, where things were much simpler and you didn't have to worry about eg…

> Frontend developers like to change frameworks every week it seems like

React is now 8 years old… so is Vue. What are these new frontend frameworks you keep seeing?

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#267

Post by breakfastduck » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 9:31 PM UTC

spoils19 wrote: post #214

SparkyMcUnicorn wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't downvote, but I'll speak to my experience. First off, you don't have to go learning every framework out there. Pick one and stick with it, or just go vanilla. That said, The features these frameworks provide gives a boost in productivity that far outweighs the low learning curve. My pick was VueJS and I'm very happy with it. Using Single File Components is pretty similar to vanilla HTML/JS/CSS. Beginners tha…

Frontend developers like to change frameworks every week it seems like, so it's in my best interest to learn every framework (or at least some abstracted part of it) in order to stay employable and up-to-date. The problem is that each framework has their own abstraction and language that you have to learn. Compare it to "old-school" Java frameworks, where things were much simpler and you didn't have to worry about eg…

'Frontend developers' like who exactly?

Anyone that's worked in a reasonably sized FE codebase can very clearly understand that changing your framework is essentially migrating a huge production DB but on steroids.

Where exactly have you seen a team of developers change their front end framework every week?

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#268

Post by smt88 » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 9:34 PM UTC

lucasyvas wrote: post #78

smt88 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I stupidly started some projects with SvelteKit instead of NextJS and am having a very hard time finding people to work on them.

Consider trying to hire outside Svelte - Anyone that can write using the major frameworks will do just fine. If the problem is candidates uninterested in using it, that's a different problem.

This is what I've done, but it's still hard to find someone who will do things in idiomatic Svelte.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#269

Post by cphoover » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 9:37 PM UTC

hunterb123 wrote: post #257

DonHopkins wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And JSX isn't JavaScript and it isn't HTML, and if you know JavaScript and HTML you still don't know JSX, so you're still using "yet another language" in addition to JavaScript and HTML.

JSX is JS. Nested brackets are simply converted to nested function calls & objects, attributes convert to properties. This is evident when comparing conditionals, loops, etc. Instead of learning template syntax you simply use JS syntax, albeit a declarative subset (no branches). JSX is simply syntactical sugar for nested JS, you can use it without, but it's prettier with. One could add this syntactical sugar natively…

I agree 100%... Adding JSX to the language spec would be interesting. It might be too heavy to include within the language spec as many JS applications do not involve the DOM at all, so then you have to essentially bundle DOM functions into every application... or common.js would omit this subset of the language.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#270

Post by kall » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 9:38 PM UTC

Drew_ wrote: post #264

kall wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we still taking about vue ? I don‘t see how that is any way close to html when it has: custom conditional and loop syntax and semantics, arbitrary js expressions and a unique concept of scope?

It does have extra non-native features but the overarching format for single file components is plain HTML which makes it feel closer to vanilla than React.

Yeah I never really understood this benefit. The file structure is irrelevant to me after 15 minutes, the nitty-gritty semantics of my code are causing me headaches and bugs forever.

(I like working with all 3 current frontend frameworks btw, not trying to start a flamewar)