Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

Post by chestertn » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 12:24 AM UTC

waserwill wrote: post #126

chestertn wrote: post #41

There are plenty of valid claims that many other civilizations contacted America: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_co... But it is meaningless since they did not write about it nor they stablished commerce. The fact is that before 1492, most civilizations in Africa/Asia/Europe did not know that America existed and that other humans lived there. After 1492, that changed forever.

> But it is meaningless since they did not write about it not they stablished commerce Depends on what you find meaningful! There was almost certainly exchange of goods between Polynesians and South Americans. The presence of early sweet potato agriculture in Polynesia and genetic admixture in both regions points to non-trivial contact. There are even parallels in terms of folk-tales [0]! (Though these are likely old…

Post by mek6800d2 » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 12:28 AM UTC

sampo wrote: post #212

ren_engineer wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is there any explanation for why disease didn't kill in the reverse direction? Why weren't Europeans wiped out by Native American diseases?

According to Guns, Germs, and Steel, by Jared Diamond, Europeans had a history of living in close encounters with farm animals, so they had adopted diseases from the animals. And also the Eurasian geography made trade, and exchange of both culture and domesticated animals, and also diseases, easier in the east-west direction. Because in east-west direction the exchange happens inside the same climate zone. Cow, horse…

Post by s1artibartfast » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 12:32 AM UTC

wnscooke wrote: post #92

bingohbangoh wrote: post #33

I've never understood the significance of this. The vikings were in North America for a few years and then went back to Europe. They brought back (almost?) nothing, left a few scattered settlements, and completely forgot about it. So what.

There are some who think that if the First Nations weren’t “the first”, that diminishes modern day claims and grievances, making it easier for modern day Canada and the USA to ignore legitimate claims, and treat us as they’ve always wanted to treat us. So, this sort of research is important for many.

Post by throwaway0a5e » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 12:34 AM UTC

nitwit005 wrote: post #166

dragontamer wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the context of military technology, ships and wagons are the big thing. Ships and wagons to carry food to troops and establish supply lines. Logistics wins wars. With exception of WW1 and WW2, soldiers didn't really die in large numbers to the enemy. Soldiers died to the cold, to disease, and deserted due to lack of food / supplies / morale. There are occasional exceptions where large numbers of soldiers died in b…

Keep in mind that the technological advantage was eroded rapidly. People happily sold all of it to the locals, including firearms. There's something of a stereotypical image of a native American warrior on horseback, but that's not a native animal.

Post by voz_ » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 12:41 AM UTC

nl wrote: post #218

voz_ wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mesoamerica had high population densities long before Spain was even a thing. Citation needed?

According to NASA archaeologist Tom Sever, the Mayan civilization in Mesoamerica was one of the densest populations in human history. Around 800 A.D., after two millennia of steady growth, the Mayan population reached an all-time high. Population density ranged from 500 to 700 people per square mile in the rural areas, and from 1,800 to 2,600 people per square mile near the center of the Mayan Empire (in what is now…