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Open Source Tax Software

ctskennerton.github.io

261–265 of 265 posts

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The french initiative started in 2013 is still alive (last commit a few days ago), and passes the gov test suite (they keep in touch with our version of the IRS): https://github.com/openfisca/openfisca-france The way we got this is interestingly twisted. French citizens requested the software used by the administration, and they managed to get it! But, it was written in Mlang, a proprietary language created by the fr…

This is great. Do most French people need to file tax returns? When I lived in Britain I only needed to file when I was self-employed and when I worked in Norway I got sent a pre-filled tax return. Now living in the US I need to file every year (both state and federally) even as a regular employee with all my income reported already reported to the government. It all seems to be an absurd charade. Attempts to reduce…

French people have to file tax returns, it is pre-filled but you still need to check and sign it. It is also the simplest case.

French tax law is actually very complicated, I guess like just about everywhere. If your only revenue is your salary, and you don't have a lot of deductibles, all you need to do is sign the form (electronically). But if you are self-employed, it is highly recommended to hire an accountant if you don't want nasty surprises if you get audited.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this only makes sense to an outsider dev who thinks everything is relatively easy. Tax and accounting is definitely not. What happens if you fall under two different tax-breaks or if a payment was taken on a certain date which falls before or after a cut-off point? A lot of complexity, that the developers could solve but will not necessarily know how to handle. At least when you submit this to the relevant ta…

It's hard for me to understand what you mean. First of all I'm one of the maintainers on the project. Handling people between two tax-brackets doesn't seem like a problem. A spreadsheet might be simple for you dealing with your own taxes, but you can't email your spreadsheet to tens of thousands of people and have them all improve upon it and share it amongst each other so all of them can benefit. That's the vision h…

They were just a couple of examples. If they were the only challenges, it wouldn't be a problem but I bet there are 1000s more (different in each country too.) and that target is constantly moving.

When I said simplification, I meant that if governments would ever accept that tax breaks and special cases are massively expensive to the companies who have to keep track of the changes and then pass on those costs to their customers, then we wouldn't need complex tax software and could use a SS. I can't see that ever happening but I would like governments to be on the hook for the decisions that cost business so much in admin/legals.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You just plug in the data (..) Here in the Netherlands I don't have to plug in any data, everything is pre-filled. Income, bank accounts, mortgage, advances on deductions, etc. All you have to do is verify it (you can change things if necessary, but I've never had to do that). Takes about five minutes max.

If that were to happen in America, an entire industry would be put out of business.

Well, individual tax prep is just one arm a much larger accounting industry. Individuals that use an accountant for their taxes probably have more complex situations where the sort of streamlines process we're discussing wouldn't suit their needs. Or they're already buying the upgraded business/home-business version of turbotax for the same reason.

Most people though just use a tax preparer at something like H&R block. A little searching indicates there's roughly 60k to 80k jobs like this in the US, and they earn (at least at H&R Block) about $16 per hour, and only for about 3 months a year. A small # of tax preparers with a bit more training & experience may provide other financial services in the off-season or assist small business with quaterly filings or bookkeeping.

Overall though, you're not talking about much of an industry collapse in terms of people employed. The ones that work in that area year-round will lose some extra hours. The ones that don't, having some experience in finance, might seek further training to get a higher level job of that sort (maybe become an actual accountant) I don't think it should be considered a barrier to ending regulatory capture within this area.

Apart from that, a few software products would collapse, losing most customers, retaining the ones that legitimately needed advanced guidance. And the company would probably have to charge the more for it, and possible compete with actual accountants on price in that respect.

But I don't think "industry collapse" is correct.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#264

What do people think of GNU Cash? I tried it once when I started up my own company and wanted to keep books. Noticed it was very much adapted for non-US audiences. Even after adding Swedish account codes it was still missing a lot of info. It was essentially a glorified spreadsheed. Could have stuck with Libreoffice calc as far as features went.

Tried it for a small non-profit and shared your finding that a well-made spreadsheet is just as good if not better. But a larger company would've quickly hit a regulatory wall as well, not just a technical one. For accounting software to be legal under our tax laws it needs to prevent you from doing things that are illegal (back-dating, editing, deleting...) and it needs to have a technical study done to prove that. Such a study is of course expensive and must be commissioned by the vendor. You can imagine how that just isn't possible for GNU Cash and similar community-built programs.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is great. Do most French people need to file tax returns? When I lived in Britain I only needed to file when I was self-employed and when I worked in Norway I got sent a pre-filled tax return. Now living in the US I need to file every year (both state and federally) even as a regular employee with all my income reported already reported to the government. It all seems to be an absurd charade. Attempts to reduce…

I don't understand how "not having to file a tax return" can work. How does it account for all the information a government might not reasonably have about your wealth and economic activities? How do you apply for tax credits? The taxation system is not particularly intricate here in Switzerland but there's absolutely no way a government that is not an orwelian surveillance state would have the required information a…

In both the US and UK employers have to report earnings and banks / brokers have to report interest and investment income to the IRS/HMRC. Do the Swiss tax authorities trust citizens to correctly report their own income without any verification?

In the UK the government communicates your tax code to your employer payroll department to tell them how much tax to withhold on your earnings (taking account of tax credits etc.) Banks have to withhold the basic rate of tax (higher rate tax payers must file, but that already excludes 90% of tax payers from worrying about it.)

In the US the system seems similar except the government doesn't let your employer know how much tax to withhold so you fill in a form for your employer with the information that gets it mostly but not quite right (so long as you don't switch jobs that year!) Filing taxes as a regular employee ends up being substantially more complex than filing taxes as a self-employed person in the UK where the government provides an online system much simpler than that provided by the tax filing companies in the US (otherwise print and mail several different PDF forms and do the math yourself, fortunately if you get it wrong the IRS already knows what you owe so at that point they'll just point out the corrections and tell you what you owe...) And this beurocracy is of course all doubled because states have their own completely separate set of rules.

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