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Open Source Tax Software

ctskennerton.github.io

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Re: Open Source Tax Software

#121

Post by netcan »

saberdancer wrote: post #80
netcan wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Generally not the kind of thing for open source Hard to know in advance, if OS communities can do something well or not. There are examples of taking on pretty sprawling problems successfully. On multi Language, portability and such they can often beat the "armies."

Yes, but the problem with taxation is if you are couple of months behind the change in regulation, you are in violation and depending on the country, you need to pay fines. It's easy to have open source project where the stakes are "bad translation" or something that doesn't result in fines or problems with IRS/law.

Same answer, I suppose.

I take the point that this is complex, but that doesn't discard OS/community by default. It's not impossible that community built OS could produce software trustworthy enough to be widely usable. FOSS has played in high stakes arena successfully before.

I would say that the point you and GP make demonstrate that "move fast and break" or "MVP" stuff can't be applied easily. That's not specifically something that impacts OS. It's just a difficulty of the space.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#122

Post by addandsubtract »

ivolimmen wrote: post #79

I keep being perplexed by how the Americans do stuff. I am Dutch and my government makes it (relatively) easy to do taxes. We got a website we can go to; it's filled by the government and we just need to verify that it is filled correctly and then click submit. Some people can make adjustments where needed and if needed. You can also let an accountant do it for you but that is optional; but useful if you have had a t…

Filing taxes in Germany is just as tedious as in the US. There are a couple of startups now simplifying the process, but at the end of the day, you're still responsible for knowing the tax codes or hiring an accountant.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#123

Post by netcan »

ineedasername wrote: post #73
xivzgrev wrote: post #19

I worked on tax software and have seen these kind of efforts. Noble, yes. Short lived, yes. It’s relatively easy to make a free 1040 file. The real problem comes from all. The. Edge. Cases. 1) do you support xyz state? 2) what if I lived in multiple states? 3) what if i… And on and on. And it’s not just one and done. Every year IRS and states are changing their shit so you have to go thru and make all kind of updates…

Disruption could also come from tax reform. Some countries don't make you figure out things on your own: That's a bit like making a shopper put in the correct prices on each item they're buying and penalizing then for mistakes. A "Price is Right" game-show version of a tax filing system. Some other countries just tell you where you stand because for the vast majority of people a standard filing is all that's required…

>>Disruption could also come from tax reform.

I'd say that's the most appropriate place, really. It's a designed system, sort of. It's malleable, in that changes occur regularly. The obvious place for bug fixes is here.

I get your pessimism in the sense that the same dynamics, politics and systems that have shaped the present problem seem unlikely to have the desire/capability to fix it. OTOH, things stay the same until they don't. There have been a lot of tax systems invented over the last N thousand years. 99.N% of those tax codes are currently extinct.

Also... we're due a shift of reigning economic religion, periodically speaking. Maybe the next one will take a differing view on efficiency.

Stuff like taxes were always enigmas productivity-wise. For a mill, product-out/labour-in = labour productivity... or product-out/capital for capital efficiency. Either way, efficiency is self evident. For a tax code, legal system or whatnot, there's no way to measure output and no "economists agree" way to know the value of the output even if you could. It could be negative.

Well... This now also applies also to JPMorgan, Pfizer, Alphabet, FB and such. Just like it's not obvious that more legal procedures = more justice, measurements of most of the economy's output is increasingly ethereal and unrelated to obvious scarcities.

That don't mean nothing definite, but we are in times of change... which means don't bet on long term saminess of most things.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#124

Post by oauea »

Just move to another country that hasn't made deals with tax companies. Believe it or not, the government is perfectly capable of doing your taxes for you. There is no reason to waste your time on this every year other than corporate greed.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#125

Post by Aaargh20318 »

wahern wrote: post #86
ineedasername wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disruption could also come from tax reform. Some countries don't make you figure out things on your own: That's a bit like making a shopper put in the correct prices on each item they're buying and penalizing then for mistakes. A "Price is Right" game-show version of a tax filing system. Some other countries just tell you where you stand because for the vast majority of people a standard filing is all that's required…

> Some countries don't make you figure out things on your own: That's a bit like making a shopper put in the correct prices on each item they're buying and penalizing then for mistakes. A "Price is Right" game-show version of a tax filing system. The U.S. doesn't make you do this, either. Most people don't itemize deductions. You just plug in the data from your W-2. The percentage of people itemizing was 30%, but wit…

> You just plug in the data (..)

Here in the Netherlands I don't have to plug in any data, everything is pre-filled. Income, bank accounts, mortgage, advances on deductions, etc. All you have to do is verify it (you can change things if necessary, but I've never had to do that). Takes about five minutes max.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#126

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #125
wahern wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some countries don't make you figure out things on your own: That's a bit like making a shopper put in the correct prices on each item they're buying and penalizing then for mistakes. A "Price is Right" game-show version of a tax filing system. The U.S. doesn't make you do this, either. Most people don't itemize deductions. You just plug in the data from your W-2. The percentage of people itemizing was 30%, but wit…

> You just plug in the data (..) Here in the Netherlands I don't have to plug in any data, everything is pre-filled. Income, bank accounts, mortgage, advances on deductions, etc. All you have to do is verify it (you can change things if necessary, but I've never had to do that). Takes about five minutes max.

If that were to happen in America, an entire industry would be put out of business.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#128

Post by pessimizer »

drstewart wrote: post #96
bjarneh wrote: post #90

Filing personal taxes in the US sounds like filing taxes for a company in other countries. A complete nightmare consisting of tons of forms that some bureaucrat dreamed up, which nobody really knows how to fill out correctly. Software exists to fill them out for you, and if you use some well-known software to do it, it's just assumed to be correct by everyone; including the state.

90% of people in the US could fill out their taxes by hand in less than 5 minutes. It's Yes, the IRS could do even this for you, but there's a myth that US taxes are always monstrously complicated that everyone likes to perpetuate: 1) The tax companies like it because it keeps people scared of doing it themselves 2) Tax reform advocates like it because it's they can cluck and shake their head at the corrupt governmen…

This poster agrees with you. It only took them a single weekend to get them done this year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28756358

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#129

Post by amelius »

sofixa wrote: post #100
ivolimmen wrote: post #79

I keep being perplexed by how the Americans do stuff. I am Dutch and my government makes it (relatively) easy to do taxes. We got a website we can go to; it's filled by the government and we just need to verify that it is filled correctly and then click submit. Some people can make adjustments where needed and if needed. You can also let an accountant do it for you but that is optional; but useful if you have had a t…

Same here in France, there's a website with a multi-stage form, with fields for various things ( revenues, deductions, etc.). Everything they know (revenues from employment, self-employment, investments via French entities, etc.) is pre-filled, you just have to check it, and if something is missing you add it. For 90% of people it's a matter of next-next-check this value with my payslip-next-next.

At what point will taxes be collected at the EU level?

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#130

Post by Taniwha »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #125
wahern wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some countries don't make you figure out things on your own: That's a bit like making a shopper put in the correct prices on each item they're buying and penalizing then for mistakes. A "Price is Right" game-show version of a tax filing system. The U.S. doesn't make you do this, either. Most people don't itemize deductions. You just plug in the data from your W-2. The percentage of people itemizing was 30%, but wit…

> You just plug in the data (..) Here in the Netherlands I don't have to plug in any data, everything is pre-filled. Income, bank accounts, mortgage, advances on deductions, etc. All you have to do is verify it (you can change things if necessary, but I've never had to do that). Takes about five minutes max.

Same here in NZ - the main thing that makes it easy is that we have absolutely no deductions, if I have one employer my tax will likely be done perfectly. If I want I can go online with the IRD and fill out my tax form (my W2 equivalents are available), it's probably worth doing if I've had 2 jobs, if I don't the govt will do it for me and send me refund if I have one coming.

I run a small biz, I do PAYE on a simple spreadsheet, then type the results onto an IRD web page, takes me less than 10 minutes a month.

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