Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

npr.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 722 posts

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#261

Post by Pyramus »

ReadEvalPost wrote: post #244
mjburgess wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you factoring in risk to others? The aggregate risk of a poorly-vaccinated population is, presumably, still likely much higher than the "longitudinal risks" of vaccines? ie., it seems unlikely to me that vaccines will kill 100,000s (and, with covid continuing, 10s,000s+/yr). Even doing this based on individual preference alone, presumably you have preferences for the safety of (some) others; of your workplace; et…

Yes, of course I think about others. I would never go in with symptoms of any infectious disease. Were I asked to work in a building away from people that are high-risk or are regularly in contact with high-risk people I would easily oblige. There are multiple possible solutions that do not violate my bodily autonomy. I agree with your assessment that major adverse effects are unlikely, but ultimately unknowns are im…

How are you so sure you know the risk of Covid, that has both an immediate and longitudinal risk, that will likely increase due to fitness escapes? Let's not forget there are still unknown unknowns regarding the longitudinal risk of Covid.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#262

Post by TulliusCicero »

simondotau wrote: post #217
nindalf wrote: post #184

I’ve typed out 3 comments to 3 separate people before deleting them. I didn’t see the point. Folks, it’s a good idea to heed dang’s warning at the top of the thread. I’ve read all the comments and can confidently say there’s nothing worth reading here. Just people absolutely convinced of their ideas and principles, shouting past each other. Nothing we haven’t seen on this topic 50 times before. You’re better off goin…

As someone who also started reading the comments in this thread, I can wholeheartedly second this. Remember, nobody is going to change their mind on this issue because of a perfectly worded response in an internet discussion. If you want to change anyone's mind, focus on the people you can speak to in the real world—and have a conversation filled with love and respect. Fear of vaccination is a powerful meme which can…

> Remember, nobody is going to change their mind on this issue because of a perfectly worded response in an internet discussion.

People have absolutely changed their minds because of internet discussions. Usually it's not one of the participants, though.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#263

Post by yosito »

ReadEvalPost wrote: post #222

I'm really upset with this decision. I have not gotten the vaccine as I prefer the known, extremely low risk of contacting COVID over the unknown longitudinal risk of the vaccine. My right to make these personal decisions regarding my bodily autonomy is extremely important to me. Under no circumstances will I yield that decision to my employer! Their demand only further reinforces my desire not to take the vaccine. W…

Honest question: why do you say the risk of COVID is known, while the risks of the vaccines are not? Both have been around and exceptionally well studied for more than a year. We have pretty thorough data on the risks of both, don't we?

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#264

Post by TulliusCicero »

nindalf wrote: post #184

I’ve typed out 3 comments to 3 separate people before deleting them. I didn’t see the point. Folks, it’s a good idea to heed dang’s warning at the top of the thread. I’ve read all the comments and can confidently say there’s nothing worth reading here. Just people absolutely convinced of their ideas and principles, shouting past each other. Nothing we haven’t seen on this topic 50 times before. You’re better off goin…

It's a war that has to be fought. It's like...hmm, it's like "racism is great" vs "racism is awful". These two opinions can't really exist in society in large numbers simultaneously without explosive results. Eventually, one side has to win. That's the only way you get peace.

That's the way I see it, anyway.

edit: an example, and a counter-example. Gay marriage is the example: there was never going to be a steady equilibrium reached of roughly half the US opposed and half the US in favor. One side had to win the fight and settle the issue.

On the other hand, abortion seems kind of similar and has in fact been in a fairly steady equilibrium in terms of public support. I think that may be because it's less one issue than two: the right to life of a fetus + bodily autonomy.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#265

Post by deanclatworthy »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #257
makomk wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, anyone who's genuinely at risk enough that they can't risk being exposed despite being vaccinated - as opposed to the people who were convinced they are because of stupid media culture war bullshit - probably shouldn't be working in an office, because at that point they're going to be at reasonably comparable risk from the common cold. Seriously. The other four endemic human coronaviruses, for example, are…

So immunocompromised people shouldn't be around other humans, because anti-vaxxers are too selfish or anti-science to get vaccinated? If everyone got vaccinated, the pandemic would likely be over or close to over in rich countries.

This is not the case. Many people who are double vaccinated are testing positive for COVID and therefore capable of spreading it: https://archive.is/sYyMf

Look at the data from the UK. The pandemic is far from over there, although hospitalisations are far far lower than previous peaks. There is a non-significant amount of immunocompromised people in the UK (1million+). Maybe the data we are seeing is because the immunocompromised people who take risks all ended up in hospital and died.

Maybe, what you are left with is a huge number of people scared shitless at home, hiding, lonely, scared in a country where everyone is being told everything is fine. My father is in this position, double vaccinated and tested negative for antibodies. Current data shows extremely low efficacy and antibody production in immunocompromised people.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#266

Post by TulliusCicero »

deanclatworthy wrote: post #265
TulliusCicero wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So immunocompromised people shouldn't be around other humans, because anti-vaxxers are too selfish or anti-science to get vaccinated? If everyone got vaccinated, the pandemic would likely be over or close to over in rich countries.

This is not the case. Many people who are double vaccinated are testing positive for COVID and therefore capable of spreading it: https://archive.is/sYyMf Look at the data from the UK. The pandemic is far from over there, although hospitalisations are far far lower than previous peaks. There is a non-significant amount of immunocompromised people in the UK (1million+). Maybe the data we are seeing is because the immu…

> Many people who are double vaccinated are testing positive for COVID and therefore capable of spreading it

Yes, but the fact that symptoms tend to be much weaker in the vaccinated likely means it's less likely to spread from them. Currently, the problem is that we have those breakthrough cases, plus also the unvaccinated still spreading the disease.

That said, it's true that the new delta variant may mean we need further boosters.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#267

Post by randomsearch »

[FWIW, I disagree with mandatory vaccination]

Unsure about anyone else, but I have been very much taken by surprise by the level of anti-vax and anti-lockdown sentiment during the pandemic. I'd have expected _some_ of the behaviour we're seeing, but not on this scale. In the UK we've seen huge "freedom marches", which are literally mass acts of disobedience against public health policies designed to save the lives of the elderly and vulnerable.

It makes me wonder what other public reactions I might be wrong about. For example, will people react to climate change getting worse by actively adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere? Might they drive (then outlawed) combustion engine vehicles in long processions through capital cities?

I've recently been reading Obama's memoirs and he talks about how he came to realise people are moved by emotions rather than rational argument, how he was disappointed by that but forced to embrace it.

I wonder, therefore, if the poor leadership of some world leaders during the first year of the pandemic is a key factor in the strength of backlash against public health policy we're seeing. Perhaps this situation is an exception caused by a void of decisive emotional argument in the other direction. I don't know, but I do know that I'm surprised.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#268

Post by MarkSweep »

Incidentally I was working on some US immigration paperwork this morning, which requires documenting that you got some vaccines before they will give you a green card. COVID is not among them yet.

The required vaccines overlap with ones required to go to school in the US. So between school vaccines and immigration vaccines, perhaps this is why companies have not had to require any vaccines before now?

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#269

Post by TulliusCicero »

randomsearch wrote: post #267

[FWIW, I disagree with mandatory vaccination] Unsure about anyone else, but I have been very much taken by surprise by the level of anti-vax and anti-lockdown sentiment during the pandemic. I'd have expected _some_ of the behaviour we're seeing, but not on this scale. In the UK we've seen huge "freedom marches", which are literally mass acts of disobedience against public health policies designed to save the lives of…

It's pretty bizarre. At least in the US, there's been mandatory vaccinations for decades for schooling, and only fringe anti-vaxxers have opposed it. It's largely been considered settled and non-controversial (except to anti-vaxxers in recent years); a basic, common sense public health requirement, not really any different from, say, health codes.

Now, apply the same principle to an active pandemic and half the country is losing its mind about it.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#270

Post by yosito »

marton78 wrote: post #190
boulos wrote: post #177

Can someone explain the “I won’t get it until it’s fully approved by the FDA” logic to me? Unlike usual vaccine trials, these vaccines have been deployed worldwide with hundreds of millions of people across many different conditions. Europe stopped using some due to an extremely rare blood clotting episode that was tens of people out millions. That suggests that rare, acute side effects have been (mostly?) discovered…

I'm not sure I can explain anything related to the FDA (I'm European) but maybe I can shed some light on the insight what people are worried about. These vaccines have been applied hundreds of million times in the past year, true. Therefore, we have a very good understanding of their adverse effects in the first 6-12 months. What we cannot know, however, are possible adverse effects that are longer term. Susceptibili…

> If these vaccines were regular, inactivated virus vaccines

There are also inactivated viral vector vaccines for COVID. I got J&J because it was what was available to me. I would have gotten an mRNA vaccine if I could. I agree that the mRNA vaccines should be studied for long term effects, but with what we know about them so far, my prediction is that we will find them to be much safer in the long term than viral vector vaccines. Only time will tell.

Post reply on HN