My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown • Hacker News Board

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#261

Post by jessedhillon » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:41 PM UTC

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #257

sjayasinghe wrote: post #242

I interpret the author’s difficulties and frustration as a byproduct of a particular misapprehension of Buddhist teachings in modern society. Many modern-day practitioners, both in the east and the west, are under the impression that simply by mechanically practicing mindfulness meditation they will eventually reach a state of enlightenment. Unfortunately, this is a misunderstanding that the Buddha himself addressed…

> as this contradicts the purely empiricist approach of mechanically practicing mindfulness with the expectation that this leads to enlightenment. This isn't really an empiricist approach. Empiricists look at what works, and (from what you're saying) this doesn't . I'm not sure what to call it, but that's the wrong word.

In this sense, this person is talking about empiricism as the outlook that only what can be measured matters. Hours spent in meditation can be measured, but your embodiment of right view can't (or isn't, at least).

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#262

Post by sjayasinghe » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #257

sjayasinghe wrote: post #242

I interpret the author’s difficulties and frustration as a byproduct of a particular misapprehension of Buddhist teachings in modern society. Many modern-day practitioners, both in the east and the west, are under the impression that simply by mechanically practicing mindfulness meditation they will eventually reach a state of enlightenment. Unfortunately, this is a misunderstanding that the Buddha himself addressed…

> as this contradicts the purely empiricist approach of mechanically practicing mindfulness with the expectation that this leads to enlightenment. This isn't really an empiricist approach. Empiricists look at what works, and (from what you're saying) this doesn't . I'm not sure what to call it, but that's the wrong word.

I'm using the word here to mean a philosophical position which only accepts knowledge that can be gained via direct meditative experience and rejects everything else. I'm open to suggestions for a better word to describe this position.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#263

Post by SubiculumCode » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

I feel like saying something spooky like, "If you leave the front door open, you never know who will walk in", but the fact is that meditation is just a practice that emphasizes and strengthens certain brain states/EEG rhythms, neural synchronies, and given heterogeneity in brain structure, connectivity, and genomes, there will be no guarantee that this will be an entirely positive shift in neural dynamics. For analogy, for many people keeping themselves busy at work keeps themselves from constant rumination of a traumatic past.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#264

Post by goodpoint » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #180

eurasiantiger wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buddhism is not a religion per se. I’m sure there are cults around it, but as Dalai Lama put it: if science shows Buddhism to be wrong, then Buddhism must change. Good luck finding that sentiment in any actual religion. If you require more proof, make it a priority to seek understanding of ”Buddha-nature”.

"Buddhism is not a religion per se." There are many types of Buddhism, and some types are definitely very religious. Take Pure Land Buddhism[1][2], for example, one of the most popular forms of Buddhism in Japan, believers of which essentially pray to the Buddha for salvation and hope to be reborn in a heavenly land. It has some interesting similarities to Christianity. Buddhism as it's actually practiced in parts of…

> There's been a concerted, conscious effort to desacralize Buddhism to make it more palatable to Westerners

This is a big generalization without a clear definition of what is "sacred".

> it's pretty clear that it's a religion.

I understand what you mean but using the world "religion" creates a lot of generalizations.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#265

Post by DantesKite » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

"I was a guitar string being tuned beyond its highest range. The string popped. A spike of fear slashed through my guts. And that’s when I split apart."

I read on Twitter about this one guy who gave himself brain damage by constantly working for months on end while programming.

It's interesting that a few others described a similar sensation. Their brain feeling like a guitar string. There's a moment where they can detect something goes wrong.

It seems like they put themselves through a very stressful situation and triggered a cascading effect.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#266

Post by denton-scratch » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

qwerty456127 wrote: post #227

denton-scratch wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Western psychiatry, the loss of a sense of self is dissociation, and is a mark of psychosis (to diagnose psychosis, you'd need some other marks, especially delusions or hallucinations). I was over-simplifying when I said "destroying the belief that you have an independent self" - the cause of suffering is attachment to the sense of an independent self. Attachment in general is seen as a cause of suffering, but att…

> The Abidharma is the closest thing in Buddhism to psychology; it presents a detailed, practical (for meditators) way of thinking about the mind and how it works. It doesn't resemble Western psychology at all. By the way, why does is not? What do you mean under Western psychology at all? Freud and Jung? If so, is it a mere incoincidence the models of the mind they invented are different from that of Abidharma or did…

Well, Western psychology purports to be "science". That means that results have to be replicable, testable, and observable. The Abhidharma was created by meditators, for meditators. Those people were not constrained by scientific method.

Some of the stuff in the Abhidharma reflects teachings of the Buddha; but most of it was constructed by monks, after the Buddha's death.

I don't know of anyother models of mind, other than Western psychology and Abhidharma. There must be other models; I'd be surprised if Vedanta, for example, didn't incorporate a model of the mind.

I suppose the dominant model of mind in a society reflects the preocccupations of that society.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#267

Post by jbgt » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

sjayasinghe wrote: post #242

I interpret the author’s difficulties and frustration as a byproduct of a particular misapprehension of Buddhist teachings in modern society. Many modern-day practitioners, both in the east and the west, are under the impression that simply by mechanically practicing mindfulness meditation they will eventually reach a state of enlightenment. Unfortunately, this is a misunderstanding that the Buddha himself addressed…

I am very happy to read this. Most people in the west understand Mindfulness in isolation, and often only mindfulness of the breath as meditation. And the intention is to "feel calm" or "not think", or want the Headspace experience on steroids or believe they can brute force their way to "Englightement"...

Without Right View and Right Intention, without the morality development of the Noble Eightfold Path, there is no wonder that they practice unskillfully, and develop unfulfilled expectations.

I highly recommend reading / listening to the talks / going to retreat at (1) for a firm foundation for practice; for more in depth reading from one of the most important Theravadin monks who brings balance to the practice and emphasizes wisdom (2). A nice podcast (3) with also a good balance of teaching.

I hope this helps people better understand meditation / mental development beyond mindfulness and concentration practice.

1 https://rosemary-steve.org/data/practice.htm

2 https://www.watnyanaves.net/en/home

3 https://tunein.com/podcasts/Religion--Spirituality-Podcasts/...

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#268

Post by camjohnson26 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

andrewzah wrote: post #222

Nursie wrote: post #79

Wow, there are a lot of judgemental and defensive responses here, from people who are allegedly working towards greater self knowledge and detachment... So many saying some variation of "he's not doing it right". Yet with ten years of practice, it doesn't seem like this person was just dabbling or dipping their toe in the water. Surely, even if they are "doing it wrong" that just goes to prove the point, that what's…

10 years doesn't really mean much by itself. If I incorrectly practice guitar for 10 years, I'll have experience of practicing the guitar incorrectly, and maybe RSI/health issues from not learning correct posture, etc. There is no rule that I'll actually get "good" at guitar by practicing that way. "that 's being taught and lauded so much as a panacea" Lauded by whom? And exactly? Buddhism? Meditation? Those are very…

But the point stands, if the most popular method of teaching guitar is wrong and can lead to serious injury then potential students need to be aware of the risks.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#269

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

throwaway_zen wrote: post #232

cyberpunk wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These sorts of things have been dealt with for centuries by Buddhists, it’s a fairly common effect when you start with Zazen. This is why taking one part of the practice and abandoning the rest (most specifically, an experienced teacher) isn’t a great idea for everyone. Most of the time all you need to hear is “just let whatever comes up during Zazen go, and return to the moment” but alas, if you don’t things can go…

> the “mindfulness industry” is full of charlatans and poor advice Thank you for saying this. There is an endless, dangerous trend of dismissing monastic traditions like Zen and trying to extract meditation from its context, under the assumption that teachings and formal practice are unnecessary. It happens in scientific research on meditation as well as on popular McMindfullness.

[deleted]

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#270

Post by Nursie » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

qwerty456127 wrote: post #249

Nursie wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, to me, the semantic definition of being conscious is simply to be awake, rather than asleep, insensible, anaesthetised, blacked out or whatever else. You seem to have a slightly different definition, I think, based on these remarks - "It is important to maintain conscious" "I've heard about Buddhists who train to always stay consciousness while living, talking and whatever," "I enjoy more value out of my life i…

I see. Thank you for the explanation. Indeed, we mean slightly different things. Have you ever (I would be surprised if you never ever had, but perhaps this doesn't happen to you often) went outdoors and then suddenly started wondering if you have turnt off the stove/iron, locked the door and taken the key with you? This happens to me every day because I always exit "unconsciously" in the meaning of the word I intend…

The doorway effect is fascinating. I don't tend to experience worry on leaving the house as you describe (I know many do), but I certainly walk into rooms and forget why I'm there.

I would talk about the issues you raise more as issues of attention, focus and division of attention, than whether one is conscious or not.

Though semantically of course I agree that there is overlap between being conscious of something, of your surroundings, of other people, of your actions etc. When someone says just "being conscious" without a particular object, I think of something different. Language is a funny, imprecise and overloaded thing.