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EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

bbc.com

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Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#261

Post by alkonaut »

thu2111 wrote: post #17

But how often do Lukashenko and his circle actually fly out of Belarus anyway? He already had no problem with closing his own borders before anyway, so it's not like this is going to seem like a strong move to him and it only really hurts the Belarusian people.

> But how often do Lukashenko and his circle actually fly out of Belarus anyway

If you are a Belorusian elite with kids in US and UK schools, money in Switzerland etc, living comfortably so long as Lukashenko is president. Then suddenly your assets are frozen, and your children can't travel to London when their next semester in the very expensive school starts. All because Lukashenko had to discipline some kid. You aren't going to be happy about that little stunt, and Lukashenko will be told.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#262

Post by simonh »

skissane wrote: post #219
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is not exact, the EU ban decision is not taken yet. see link here: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2021 ... The decision is taken. You are misunderstanding what you are reading. The press release follows an urgent meeting from the Council. The Council is the reunion of all the EU heads of state. They have already agreed to the ban. The sentence you are quoting just means that they now h…

> The press release follows an urgent meeting from the Council. The Council is the reunion of all the EU heads of state. They have already agreed to the ban. The sentence you are quoting just means that they now have to pass the corresponding executive orders in their respective countries which, as you are rightfully pointing, has already been done by France. That's not what the quoted sentence ("calls on the Council…

Yes France has already implemented this decision, without any involvement from the Council of the European Union.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#263

Post by londons_explore »

dannyw wrote: post #206
londons_explore wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see a worldwide agreement that no country will ever stop a citizen from leaving, as long as they have permission to enter another country. Even if the person is in prison or debt, they can always leave with just themselves to another country willing to take them. If all nations agreed to that, we could stop worrying about most other human rights abuses, and country governance becomes more of a free market…

In Australia, it's currently a crime for citizens to leave without a permit. The system for permits is quite arbitrary, with some reporting approvals in minutes, and others reporting rejections without reason. It is worth noting that a recent survey showed a vast majority of Australians preferring closed borders as we have been relatively unscathed from COVID.

> In Australia, it's currently a crime for citizens to leave without a permit.

As long as a country allows a citizen to leave, it doesn't matter if it's also against local laws. It simply means that the person should expect punishment if they were to ever return.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#264

Post by DocTomoe »

refactor_master wrote: post #183
londons_explore wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see a worldwide agreement that no country will ever stop a citizen from leaving, as long as they have permission to enter another country. Even if the person is in prison or debt, they can always leave with just themselves to another country willing to take them. If all nations agreed to that, we could stop worrying about most other human rights abuses, and country governance becomes more of a free market…

The free market has a pretty terrible track record when it comes to human rights, though. What would countries stand to gain from this, realistically? No country wants economic refugees.

This would not apply to "economic refugees", because those would - if unwelcome - lack the permission by the target nation to take them.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#265

Post by simonh »

lazyjones wrote: post #222
stanpinte wrote: post #26

This is not exact, the EU ban decision is not taken yet. see link here: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2021... "- calls on the Council to adopt the necessary measures to ban overflight of EU airspace by Belarusian airlines and prevent access to EU airports of flights operated by such airlines;" decision has still to be made by the council, and then - to my understanding - implemented by all m…

Also, it sounds wrong that they can allegedly ban Belarusian planes from "European" skies, with Belarus being a country in Europe...

By European skies, they just mean the skies over the European Union. News articles routinely say Europe when they man the European Union. Sometimes confusingly, but I think the context is clear here.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#266

Post by 5tefan »

mopsi wrote: post #168
5tefan wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary. Our political elites are unable to find political and diplomatic answers. Resorting to bans and sanctions is weak. Inability and unwillingnes to talk to each other will make the people suffer. The ultimate suffering is civil unrest and war. The big picture to me is a very dark one: The world is preparing for war. This is just another side note to heigthen tensions.

> Resorting to bans and sanctions is weak. No, endless talk with no action is weak and pathetic. Mafia states will shit on you if you show unwillingness to stand for yourself. Biden lifted sanctions on Nord Stream and three days later you have this stunt. Let that be a lesson. Every incoming president has had such trial by fire.

They call for blood. You call for blood. This won't lead to less blood. As I stated in my comment and as you casually confirmed. I don't want blood at all.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#267

Post by londons_explore »

bob_roboto wrote: post #259
jonplackett wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*only if someone will take them

Maybe I'm cynical but I'd bet money on people being able to turn this into a business...

I'd actually be fine with criminals using this to leave my country...

Housing and feeding criminals is expensive. Letting them leave permanently is in my eyes a better solution.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#268

Post by DocTomoe »

bob_roboto wrote: post #259
jonplackett wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*only if someone will take them

Maybe I'm cynical but I'd bet money on people being able to turn this into a business...

Which would become an one-way route, because once a nation has become a criminal-refugee paradise, why would third countries accept them travelling to their shores?

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#269

Post by skissane »

simonh wrote: post #262
skissane wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The press release follows an urgent meeting from the Council. The Council is the reunion of all the EU heads of state. They have already agreed to the ban. The sentence you are quoting just means that they now have to pass the corresponding executive orders in their respective countries which, as you are rightfully pointing, has already been done by France. That's not what the quoted sentence ("calls on the Council…

Yes France has already implemented this decision, without any involvement from the Council of the European Union.

To be horribly pedantic about it, they haven't actually implemented the decision because the decision hasn't formally been enacted yet. (Decision is actually a technical term in European Union law – EU legislative acts can be classified as directives, regulations, decisions, or recommendations. I'm not sure in this case what type of legislative instrument they are going to use – it could be either a regulation or a decision, it won't be a directive or a recommendation.)

They've just decided to do the same thing independently while they wait.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#270

Post by simonh »

rklaehn wrote: post #170
andrepd wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hungary is objectively an authoritarian regime because it removed separation of powers, stacked court with political appointees, closed down virtually all independent press, made state TV into a propaganda piece for Fidesz, etc. Not because it "disagrees with the EU".

I fail to see how this is different than other EU countries. E.g. the head of the German constitutional court has been a recent member of parliament for 12 years. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephan_Harbarth How is that not a political appointment? And I have not yet seen any state TV which is not sympathetic to the government bureaucracy. If you are being paid by the state, you are not going to be too critical of…

>I fail to see how this is different than other EU countries.

That's a pretty colossal scale of failure, IMHO.

Inability to conform to platonic ideals of democracy and transparency != blatant autocracy.

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