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EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

bbc.com

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Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#221

Post by londons_explore »

refactor_master wrote: post #183
londons_explore wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see a worldwide agreement that no country will ever stop a citizen from leaving, as long as they have permission to enter another country. Even if the person is in prison or debt, they can always leave with just themselves to another country willing to take them. If all nations agreed to that, we could stop worrying about most other human rights abuses, and country governance becomes more of a free market…

The free market has a pretty terrible track record when it comes to human rights, though. What would countries stand to gain from this, realistically? No country wants economic refugees.

There are a few countries who will pretty much let anybody in. Migrants often bring with them skills that the locals don't have, and in any mass migration, those who migrate (vs stay where they are) tend to be the fitter, smarter, richer people.

The main reason not to take migrants is you might see substantial economic losses as migrants send income back home to support family. You might alienate your existing population with conflicting cultures. And with enough immigration, the migrants might eventually outnumber the original population and persecute them (eg. indian reservations).

It's all a tradeoff, but I suspect there always a few countries worldwide who will take anyone.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#222

Post by lazyjones »

stanpinte wrote: post #26

This is not exact, the EU ban decision is not taken yet. see link here: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2021... "- calls on the Council to adopt the necessary measures to ban overflight of EU airspace by Belarusian airlines and prevent access to EU airports of flights operated by such airlines;" decision has still to be made by the council, and then - to my understanding - implemented by all m…

Also, it sounds wrong that they can allegedly ban Belarusian planes from "European" skies, with Belarus being a country in Europe...

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#223

Post by petre »

mcky wrote: post #145

Worth noting in all of this that Belarus recently closed their land borders to citizens [1], under the guise of COVID, but in reality to stop people leaving. The only way out was flying from Minsk, which is now even less of an option if there are no flights to the EU. As others have said these sanctions will likely do more to harm the repressed citizens of the regime than Lukashenko [1] https://www.bnt.eu/cs/zpravy/p…

They could still fly to Russia or Ukraine and then cross the land border into an EU country. Maybe Ukraine would follow suit though, they can benefit from better relations with the EU.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#224

Post by Sporktacular »

Politically convenient amnesia is on full display again: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/24/opinion/belarus-plane-pro...

The US pressured Austria to do the same - for a head of state's airplane - while looking for Snowden.

It's not whataboutism - both are abuses of power, but the sanctimony is just unbearable.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#225

Post by avh02 »

ForHackernews wrote: post #214
axiosgunnar wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does Germamy willingly accept so many then? Genuinely curious

Either for humanitarian reasons, or because Germany has an ageing population and desperately needs young workers to support its welfare state.

mostly the latter - plus a need for more highly skilled workers in certain shortage occupations.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#226

Post by sbarre »

dannyw wrote: post #206
londons_explore wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see a worldwide agreement that no country will ever stop a citizen from leaving, as long as they have permission to enter another country. Even if the person is in prison or debt, they can always leave with just themselves to another country willing to take them. If all nations agreed to that, we could stop worrying about most other human rights abuses, and country governance becomes more of a free market…

In Australia, it's currently a crime for citizens to leave without a permit. The system for permits is quite arbitrary, with some reporting approvals in minutes, and others reporting rejections without reason. It is worth noting that a recent survey showed a vast majority of Australians preferring closed borders as we have been relatively unscathed from COVID.

> It is worth noting that a recent survey showed a vast majority of Australians preferring closed borders

Of course they do, but as with most other human rights declarations, these rules are there to protect the minority, not the majority.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#227

Post by petre »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #133
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is not exact, the EU ban decision is not taken yet. see link here: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2021 ... The decision is taken. You are misunderstanding what you are reading. The press release follows an urgent meeting from the Council. The Council is the reunion of all the EU heads of state. They have already agreed to the ban. The sentence you are quoting just means that they now h…

Dear WastingMyTime89 (<-- not at all!): Excellent post. Thank you to clarify these important details! I wonder if but other (non-EU) European states will follow suit, such as United Kingdom, Norway, Switzerland, etc.

The UK has already done it.

"The UK has suspended the operating permit for Belarusian state airline Belavia, and EU leaders have called on member states to take similar action."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57236489

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#228

Post by gspr »

bellyfullofbac wrote: post #87

Wonder what the geo-political consequences could be. What if Big Brother Putin now says all EU planes are banned from flying over Russia. Or what if Russian ATC are ordered to route planes flying from the east to Belarussian airspace. Of course there's probably a bit of freedom to choose routes by pilots, but if I were Putin I'd just say (or tell my ATC to say): "those routes are closed because of military training,…

> Wonder what the geo-political consequences could be. What if Big Brother Putin now says all EU planes are banned from flying over Russia.

Well, who would really lose out if the EU and the US were to retaliate with the same action? Russia, or EU+US? I would wager the latter would revert to the transpolar routes of the cold war, while the former would be almost entirely shut out of its most lucrative markets. No way Putin would do this.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#229

Post by whizzter »

chx wrote: post #164
nomercy400 wrote: post #91

I am surprised Hungary agreed. And Poland. The governments in those nations are not shy to touch on the freedoms of their population, and often disagree with the EU when the EU points these things out. Also Poland being directly next to Belarus will affect their relations.

> I am surprised Hungary agreed. To quote the Economist, > If Mr Orban ever does hit an obstacle, he surrenders some gains, while keeping the bulk of them. (The Hungarian leader even has a name for this legal waltz: the peacock dance.) Orbán have vetoed a number of EU resolutions recently, most importantly one condemning China over Hong Kong. He probably coordinated with Mr Putin and they agreed Lukashenko can be fed…

On the contrary Putin probably cheered him on knowing that some outcome like this was likely.

Apparently Lukashenko has been playing a bit of chicken with Putin at times saying "Maybe I should be friendly with the EU instead?", now they both know that Luk is in Putins hands without even needing to say a single word.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#230

Post by gspr »

agilob wrote: post #24
mam3 wrote: post #20

Why is there no one talking about some sort of military response like literally building a base at the bielorussian border with fighter planes that would prevent such equally military actions like that.

BelaRUS Russia has military zone (Kaliningrad) close to Poland and Lithuania, escalating military conflict with Belarus will make Russia to respond.

Exactly how would Russia respond militarily? Except perhaps attempts to destabilize Ukraine even more, what cards can they really play here?
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