Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace • Hacker News Board

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#261

Post by petre » Mon, May 24, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

struxure wrote: post #236

baybal2 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't know anything. Few hundred people paid with their lives for speaking their mind. Either killed in the most gruesome way, or just customarily disappeared. There are at least a hundred something of journalists only who were murdered. It's a brutal KGB-mafia dictatorship trying its best masquerading as a normal country. You will always see Russian diplomats on every high nosed UN, and OSCE talkshop on human ri…

The question was if people (I assumed a regular folk, not journalists and opposition) are allowed to make jokes about the government, and I answered to that. Of course I know that Russia has no traces of democracy left and I am aware how Russia targets high-profile people, including journalists. You should be more reserved before telling people they don't know anything.

Allowed? People would do it anyway. Most Eastern European communist era jokes involved the beloved leader. Russian jokes about politicians and policies are even better.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_political_jokes

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#262

Post by rchaud » Mon, May 24, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

mikro2nd wrote: post #104

mrweasel wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This will likely have no consequences to the regime in Belarus That's the problem with sanctions, at some point you run of of things to take away. From then on your target can pretty much do what ever they want, knowing that things can't really get any worse.

Not so. Sanctions can be devastatingly effective applied by a significant majority of the world over a length of time. Sanctions were the instrument that brought an end to the Apartheid regime in South Africa: sanctions, having brought the South African economy to its knees, were a key factor in forcing the ruling regime to the negotiating table. Yes, in some fairytale world the ruling National Party could have conti…

The impact of sanctions against apartheid SA get talked about a lot because it's a good example of international cooperation for non-violent activism.

Unfortunately talking only about sanctions ignores that plenty of governments resisted and watered down the sanctions because the apartheid regime's anti-communist ideology.

The negotiations to phase out apartheid for a democracy began mere months after the fall of the Berlin wall. At that point the collapse of the USSR was imminent, and the apartheid regime's utility as an anti-Communist outpost had expired.

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#263

Post by enriquto » Mon, May 24, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

Swenrekcah wrote: post #170

enriquto wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The recent incident is painted in exactly the same light by Belarus authorities. They say that the plane was diverted due to a terrorist threat. All passengers were safely evacuated, and once the threat was cleared, they were allowed to continue their trip. During their time in Belarusian soil, one passenger was detained, for completely unrelated reasons. Of course Belarusian police could not do otherwise than detain…

Be that as it may, the "Somebody else got away with it!" line is not a valid defense for anything.

> (...) is not a valid defense for anything

I'm not defending the callous behavior of Belarus. I'm just pointing that the UE/NATO criticism of it is shamefully hypocritical. Both are equally wrong in my eyes.

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#264

Post by mopsi » Mon, May 24, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #247

mopsi wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Morales-Shmorales. No-one cares about the games governments play with their private jets. This was an unprecedented attack on public scheduled intra-European passenger service that every regular person may end up using. This is a whole different category and that's why the whataboutism isn't working this time and the standard "losing moral authority" talking points sound particularly shallow and unconvicing.

Perhaps not to you. I think they'll make effective use of whataboutism on Belarussian state TV and newspapers. The similarities make it almost too easy for them.

I wouldn't call that particularly effective. Everyone but the most braindead vatniks know that's bullshit. Lies, lies and further lies just like in the USSR.

No amount of propaganda can mask how shitty the life is. There's no reason whatsoever why Belarus couldn't be enjoying the same quality of life as their direct neighbours in the west, they were at the same starting point in 1991 after all. Limited travel is still possible and people know very well what life is like just across the border. Do the same job, get paid several times as much, and without getting molested by government thugs.

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#265

Post by toyg » Mon, May 24, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

oytis wrote: post #166

hutzlibu wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you prefer a strong, centralised EU government with a strong leader (aka dictator)? Well, I don't. But this is the only way to take direct action - as the individual members are not of a single mind.

Democracies can be capable of quick direct action too. See U.S. esp. U.S. some 50-70 years back. Democracy is no excuse for being inefficient, if democracies don't find a way to protect their values and interests, they will eventually be replaced by more efficient states

Ah yes, the glory days of "quick direct action" in Vietnam and Cambodia. What fun was had by everyone! What progress was achieved! We should totally long for that.

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#266

Post by throwaway210222 » Mon, May 24, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

Swenrekcah wrote: post #170

enriquto wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The recent incident is painted in exactly the same light by Belarus authorities. They say that the plane was diverted due to a terrorist threat. All passengers were safely evacuated, and once the threat was cleared, they were allowed to continue their trip. During their time in Belarusian soil, one passenger was detained, for completely unrelated reasons. Of course Belarusian police could not do otherwise than detain…

Be that as it may, the "Somebody else got away with it!" line is not a valid defense for anything.

> the "Somebody else got away with it!" line is not a valid defense for anything.

It actually is, if you are tacitly saying "and we will let them them get away with it again, and again, and again…" but "these other guys you must help me stop".

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#267

Post by ClumsyPilot » Mon, May 24, 2021, 4:59 PM UTC

csomar wrote: post #67

erentz wrote: post #40

It’s odd to me that the Ryanair flight yesterday was already closer to its destination of Vilnius than Minsk when it turned around. Ryanair said that the crew had been "notified by Belarus (Air Traffic Control) of a potential security threat on board and were instructed to divert to the nearest airport, Minsk". So they didn’t have an incident onboard? There were no hijackers claiming to have a bomb? Just ATC telling…

They sent a fighter jet. I don't think the pilot had much of a choice.

Ai have serious doubts that they would date shoot down the plane, but obviously this is such a wild scenario for a normal pilot that they cannot be blamed for not turning it into a game of chicken

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#268

Post by oytis » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #265

oytis wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracies can be capable of quick direct action too. See U.S. esp. U.S. some 50-70 years back. Democracy is no excuse for being inefficient, if democracies don't find a way to protect their values and interests, they will eventually be replaced by more efficient states

Ah yes, the glory days of "quick direct action" in Vietnam and Cambodia. What fun was had by everyone! What progress was achieved! We should totally long for that.

These are examples of unsuccessful wars, although we don't know how many times the possibility of American intervention prevented USSR from starting theirs. Korean war was partially successful though, the whole Korea could look like North Korea if US didn't intervene

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#269

Post by toyg » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

tuyguntn wrote: post #244

standardUser wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the UN were used in the way you are suggesting, the UN wouldn't exist.

https://www.un.org/un70/en/content/history/index.html > The United Nations is an international organization founded in 1945 after the Second World War by 51 countries committed to maintaining international peace and security , developing friendly relations among nations and promoting social progress, better living standards and human rights. If UN is committed to do something good for having better living standards a…

You can think what you want, but the reality is that the majority of the world still lives in poverty and ignorance, with all that it entails (and even the well-educated are not exactly guaranteed to have the same priorities as you, e.g. Israel). If you go around invading every human-right-violatin' piece of land, very soon you won't have an army.

The UN has its issues, like the League of Nations before that, but it's still a place where the world tries to communicate and (occasionally) solve (some) problems. It has lasted longer than the LoN precisely because it has not taken the "activist" bent of its predecessor. It cannot solve everything, maybe even anything, but it's still better to have such an assembly than not having it. If anything, it provides some legitimacy to humanitarian efforts, when enough countries in the Security Council agree on a deployment.

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#270

Post by toyg » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

oytis wrote: post #268

toyg wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, the glory days of "quick direct action" in Vietnam and Cambodia. What fun was had by everyone! What progress was achieved! We should totally long for that.

These are examples of unsuccessful wars, although we don't know how many times the possibility of American intervention prevented USSR from starting theirs. Korean war was partially successful though, the whole Korea could look like North Korea if US didn't intervene

I think the US has demonstrated enough "possibility of intervention" since 1991, wouldn't you agree...? Kuwait is "free" but Iraq is lost to Iran, Afghanistan and Rwanda are still a mess.

Guns don't solve everything.