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Noise pollution hurts the heart

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Re: Noise pollution hurts the heart

#261

Post by timdaub »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #165
timdaub wrote: post #128

Here's some anecdotal evidence from my experience: I've lived close to a loud 4 lane road for 4 years. My windows were bad too. When trucks drove over a bump in the road, I sometimes was able to notice the vibrations. Given this radical experience and all the pain caused by sleep-deprevation and having to move away finally, I second the article's message whole-heartedly (lol). Though I was luckily to be able to move,…

I live just uphill of a minor state highway intersection that's near several industrial sites. I hear jake brakes going down the hill end engines going up the hill. And there's hourly-ish trains on the overlooking hill, one of the industrial sites sometimes smells a little. One of my neighbors parties. Another one has dogs that bark at everything. Yet a third has all manner of 2-stroke powered toys. I have never been…

Fair enough. Actually, in the place I lived I could be as loud as I wanted too.

Re: Noise pollution hurts the heart

#262

Post by ricardobayes »

pims wrote: post #260
vladvasiliu wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've looked a bit into it, and it's actually not that bad. [0] is a French source (not government affiliated). Basically, as you said, there's the "official" test, which is dynamic (the bike has to be moving) and involved enough to not be practical for everyday controls by police. But there's also a "static" test, for the purpose of facilitating police controls. The meat of it, from the article, is below. The paramet…

Thanks for clarifying. Given the considerable amount of motorcycles that are way too loud, it still feels like the noise limits for homologation are way too high. Or if that many bikes have been tampered with, it means there really is absolutely no enforcement whatsoever. Either way it sucks :/

I would have thought French have a more strict approach given how they throttle performance of bikes. Like a hayabusha with 100 HP. I think a while back max. performance was 100HP for bikes.

Re: Noise pollution hurts the heart

#263

Post by khafra »

Jtsummers wrote: post #119
khafra wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of them would be happier to get a small amount of money for being just a little bit quieter. People preferring peace and quiet would be happy to pay a small amount of money to get fans of noisemaking to stay below their annoyance threshold. Rough sketch of a potential process: Harley Q. is riding through the hills with the throttle open when her phone buzzes, indicating she's approaching an area with residents w…

That's like saying, "I'll stop punching you if you pay me $50, but until then I'm really enjoying punching you." Assholes are assholes and should not be paid to not be assholes, they should just stop it or pay others whenever they cross the line (via fines or other means).

> That's like saying, "I'll stop punching you if you pay me $50, but until then I'm really enjoying punching you."

It's not at all like that, because punching people is currently illegal, and making noise up to a certain threshold is legal. I like peace and quiet more than I like making noise, so I wouldn't mind a lower legal threshold; but the advantage of paying people instead of fighting to change laws is that there's no actual fight.

The advantage of casting things as a moral struggle instead of a difference in preferences is, of course, that you might be able to gather enough allies to defeat the other side and take their stuff.

Re: Noise pollution hurts the heart

#264

Post by khafra »

bdamm wrote: post #122
khafra wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Coase Theorem suggests that, with sufficiently frictionless microtransactions, people who prefer to make noise and people who prefer not to hear noise could all be happier. Maybe a phone app with a decibel-meter and a distance metric to each other such app within hearing distance, with pre-authorized amounts to transfer for each decibel level created/experienced?

This is a naïve free market view. Unless you have a government under your thumb, you'll never compel a population to install this app and all use it. Even if you did manage to convince people to use it, participants will game it into submission before it ever gained relevancy.

> you'll never compel a population to install this app and all use it.

Everyone who uses the app gets something they individually want. Noisemakers get the opportunity to be paid to be quiet, and quiet-likers get the opportunity to enjoy peace and quiet for a bit of money.

There's no coercion necessary, although it does rely a bit on geographically local network effects to be useful at all.

Re: Noise pollution hurts the heart

#265

Post by khafra »

mikestew wrote: post #186
khafra wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Coase Theorem suggests that, with sufficiently frictionless microtransactions, people who prefer to make noise and people who prefer not to hear noise could all be happier. Maybe a phone app with a decibel-meter and a distance metric to each other such app within hearing distance, with pre-authorized amounts to transfer for each decibel level created/experienced?

Well, if we're willing to go the financial incentives route, we could just slap their ass with a $250 ticket when they ride through town with loud pipes. No need to get all complicated with phone apps and tracking such. And the "Didn't-Think-This-Through-Did-You" Department asks if one really thinks the Loud Pipes Save Lives and Freeduhm! crowd is going to use a location-tracking app? If the answer is yes, boy, has t…

> Well, if we're willing to go the financial incentives route, we could just slap their ass with a $250 ticket when they ride through town with loud pipes.

That is already a thing: https://tiremeetsroad.com/2019/01/07/how-much-are-tickets-fo..., It's just a bit underenforced.

I could see the Harley crowd being reluctant to install such an app, but I could also see it going the other way with the right marketing. After all, your phone already tracks your location and reports it to any company willing to pay. And what if, instead of just cash, the app gave discount points for a local leather chaps store?

Re: Noise pollution hurts the heart

#266

Post by khafra »

pushswap wrote: post #115
khafra wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of them would be happier to get a small amount of money for being just a little bit quieter. People preferring peace and quiet would be happy to pay a small amount of money to get fans of noisemaking to stay below their annoyance threshold. Rough sketch of a potential process: Harley Q. is riding through the hills with the throttle open when her phone buzzes, indicating she's approaching an area with residents w…

Sounds like a magnet for noisemakers to route their trips through while staying just at or under the annoyance threshold -- a threshold which, with increased sensitivity, may be shifting lower.

You'll note that I already suggested a small additional payment in escrow for noisemakers to stay away for a few weeks or whatever. I also doubt even the most noise-sensitive neighborhoods would be willing to pay enough to make regular, special trips just for noise-profiteering worthwhile. If they were, it would probably approach the strength of preference that they'd be willing to fight to change local noise ordinances and get an enforcement push.

Re: Noise pollution hurts the heart

#267

Post by ColFrancis »

jtsuken wrote: post #242

Hey, here is a startup idea. I've been sitting on for a while and given my lack of engineering experience will probably never work on. Problem: Unnecessary/excessive noise from outdated/not properly maintained or purposefully broken devices (e.g. combustion engine powered leaf blowers, excessive and outdated reverse gear warning sounds on large vehicles, hollow motorbike ~mufflers~, garbage bins with metal wheels/lid…

The big trouble you'll have is incentives. Who has an incentive to put them up in a noisy place?

Re: Noise pollution hurts the heart

#268

Post by benhurmarcel »

Guest42 wrote: post #15
belly_joe wrote: post #2

I feel the sound -> stress connection palpably. Especially sudden loud noises like a horn honking cause me to feel upset for a long while after being startled. Seems like a convincing argument to me for car-free spaces, although honestly I just wish we had stronger social norms against unnecessarily using a car's horn.

Agreed. I also don’t like it when locking a car via remote causes the horn to go off and in order to make sure people hit it multiple times.

Is that limited to the US? In Europe I don't see cars do that; usually the lights blink but it doesn't make large sound.

Re: Noise pollution hurts the heart

#269

Post by vladvasiliu »

ricardobayes wrote: post #262
pims wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for clarifying. Given the considerable amount of motorcycles that are way too loud, it still feels like the noise limits for homologation are way too high. Or if that many bikes have been tampered with, it means there really is absolutely no enforcement whatsoever. Either way it sucks :/

I would have thought French have a more strict approach given how they throttle performance of bikes. Like a hayabusha with 100 HP. I think a while back max. performance was 100HP for bikes.

Well, as always, there's the theory, and then there's the practice.

The 100 HP law has been removed around 2016 because the EU said it was it against free trade in the block. I'm not really sure how that works and if a vehicle must only comply with EU regulations in order to be sold in any and every country. As a biker, I'm happy it was removed. It was just silly and useless. A 100 HP bike, even a heavy one like a Hayabusa is powerful enough to give you a bad day if you have no idea what you're doing [0].

More related to the issue at hand, limiting was very easy to circumvent and practically impossible to verify without putting the bike on a dyno. Older, non fuel injected models only had some kind of mechanical limiting for admission. My bike was limited by the ECU which is trivial to swap. Actually in my particular case it's a bit more involved since the coded key is tied to the ECU, so you'd have to also change the key. The ECU is just a black box with a bunch of connectors. It doesn't say anything as to what it does.

It's more or less the same issue with mufflers. They're pretty trivial to change and even if they're sold as street legal, it's very easy to remove a capsule to "open" it up.

However, this is much easier to control than the ECU mapping. Just put out a mic and measure the sound level. Is it above the value in the registration? It's illegal. Done.

But I think it's just much easier to enforce speed limits. Just set up a speed camera and take pictures of the guys passing by. You don't even have to stop them. And, as a bonus, it counts as "doing something" for traffic safety.

---

[0] One good thing in France (and maybe the whole EU, now) is that getting a motorcycle license is not as easy as the car license. But in traffic stats, motorcycles are usually counted in the category of "2 wheelers" (which actually includes some trikes). The issue here is that not everyone has an actual motorcycle license. And, related to the power issue, it would seem that "inappropriate speed" was a factor in more accidents involving small bikes (those not requiring the full motorcycle license) than bigger ones. Below is a (2008) study showing that:

* "small bikers" are more often the cause of the accident than "big" ones.

* big bikes, when the cause of the accident was a "loss of control", were on average going 15 km/h above the posted speed limit. Pretty much any 100 HP motorcycle can go above 145 km/h (highway speed limit is 130).

http://www.fema-online.eu/riderscan/IMG/pdf/in_depth_-_franc...

Re: Noise pollution hurts the heart

#270

Post by ris »

mikestew wrote: post #83
boredumb wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harleys stock are actually under the legal noise limit (80 decibels i think?) and are generally that loud due to straight exhaust and a specific cam shaft they use to squeeze more performance out of them. My understanding is folks prefer them to be loud so that they can be better noticed by cars and get hit less often. Dirt bikes are around 100 decibels, perform like trash and shouldn't be on the freeway near cars in…

If “loud pipes save(d) lives”, your insurance company would give a discount for straight pipes. Instead they give a discount if you’ve taken a training course and have ABS. It is bullshit spouted by man-children that just want to attract attention, dishonestly disguised as a safety issue.

This is a very good point. In fact, I'd imagine insurance companies would actually be very interested to know that a bike is being ridden with illegal modifications...
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