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Sales of electric cars up by 43% in 2020

theguardian.com

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Re: Sales of electric cars up by 43% in 2020

#261

Post by adrianN »

Ma8ee wrote: post #238
adrianN wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From May 2019 to January 2020 we used 706kWh. I have a fridge but no other appliances that constantly draw power. I don't heat electrically, but I cook using electricity. I run the washing machine about once a week or so and hang-dry the clothes. I guess I've used a bit more electricity during the last year because I worked from home more, but I doubt it's a factor 10. 100kWh per day would cost more than I pay for re…

Do you heat water with electricity? That’s a big part of our consumption. Just by looking at what hour we use electricity I realise that just the kids bath every evening is around 2kWh. And with two small kids the laundry machine runs at least once per day and the dishwasher at least twice when we both grownups work from home.

No, no heating or hot water with electricity.

Re: Sales of electric cars up by 43% in 2020

#262

Post by kybernetikos »

missedthecue wrote: post #110
theshrike79 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is a country lead by engineers with unlimited power to do whatever they want. If they want all cars to be electric, that will happen. If they want a 5 million person city just there because it's logistically advantageous, then that will happen. The good thing is that they can make decisions like this. The bad thing is that they can make decisions like this.

Autocracies seem to be the most efficient form of governance. It's a shame that this also means that they can do evil things very efficiently, given no one can stop them.

I'm not convinced that this is borne out by history at all.

Anyway, the argument against the effectiveness of autocracy is essentially the same as the argument of planned production vs markets for price discovery.

The more you concentrate decision making on complex topics, the less the body making the decision has access to all the nuance and detail that are needed to make the correct decision. This usually gets even worse when the people bringing the (potentially upsetting) detail and nuance need also to maintain good relationships with the autocrat or face serious consequences.

You saw this relationship between Trump and Fauci recently - if you're trying to say something that the person in charge doesn't like, then you are sidelined to the detriment of society. That's classic autocratic behaviour. But in this case the consequences for Fauci were constrained by the fact that it was happening in a mainly free society, and the society was able to correct itself after 4 years without having to murder a huge proportion of its population. The ability to do that is a massive benefit for a free society.

There have been horrible famines killing many millions of people because the (smart, well-educated) person in charge thought they knew what was best. That is not efficient.

Needing to build consensus is something that generally has to happen in a free society can slow you down, but it also exposes you to other views, and allows your mistakes and prejudices to be challenged. This allows you to make better, more effective decisions.

Re: Sales of electric cars up by 43% in 2020

#263

Post by kybernetikos »

bluetomcat wrote: post #234
kstenerud wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autocracies are only short-term efficient. Once their initial aims are met, they become terribly inefficient, then corruption sets in, and then they must be forcibly removed. It's good for other nations who can benefit from their trailblazing, but bad for the nation itself because they're basically fucked in the future when the bill comes due. Centralization is long-term the worst kind of governance, inevitably becom…

> Autocracies are only short-term efficient. Once their initial aims are met, they become terribly inefficient, then corruption sets in, and then they must be forcibly removed. From the point of view of Western individualism, yes. However, a strong autocracy relies on building a strong collective identity through education and the cultural institutions. That identity isolates the individual from his personal beliefs…

> strong collective identity

This makes a society weaker - it's effectively a monoculture that restricts the data available to the decision makers.

It also reduces a societies ability to innovate in art, culture and eventually technology and science - innovation requires the ability to take an outside view, to be self-critical, and a society that is too busy forging a 'strong collective identity' will make it harder for individuals to do that.

It even poisons a societies own understanding of itself and its history, since we have so far failed to come up with good ways of building a 'strong collective identity' without accepting and promoting lies about history.

Re: Sales of electric cars up by 43% in 2020

#264

Post by adrianN »

numpad0 wrote: post #242
adrianN wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You probably have a roof that doesn't have solar panels yet.

And you probably haven't seen a hurricane. Or snow for that matter.

A solar installation in your yard won't survive a hurricane either.

Re: Sales of electric cars up by 43% in 2020

#265

Post by petra »

kstenerud wrote: post #241
AYBABTME wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at Japan and Korea who took the same approach of "cheap specialized labour", they both pivoted to high quality, and more innovative once they caught up. I have no doubt China will do the same, but at much larger scale. There's already a lot of innovative consumer products coming online, which I'd attribute to the vibe of rapid and efficient hardware products iteration in Shenzen.

Japan and Korea are collective societies, not autocratic ones. China's goal under Xi is a return to the golden age of the Kingdom of Heaven, where all Chinese people exemplify the ideals and morals of the most civilized society on Earth. That goal is only tangentially related to the technical innovations they're making, and will eventually stifle them as the definition of "good citizen" and "proper pursuits" becomes…

How do innovative transportation technologies(SpaceX, Hyperloop), food choice(plant, lab based meat), robots and AI, green tech, etc not "proper pursuits"?

They're good business, they offer more power to China, why would they change that?

And considering they're history, they've probably learned the lesson about the weakness of ignoring global technology.

And sure, they do have the "great firewall", but it's smart enough to let the science\technology in while filtering the politics out.

Re: Sales of electric cars up by 43% in 2020

#266

Post by ivanche »

Ma8ee wrote: post #214
adrianN wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My two person household uses maybe two kWh per day.

I find that very unlikely if you have any appliances at all. Multiple it by ten and I might start to believe you. For reference, right now we, granted in a four person household and electric heating in the coldest winter month, are using around 100 kWh per day. Even when the house is unoccupied in the summer the consumption is around 3.5 kWh per day. That is probably mostly just a fridge and two freezers.

100 kWh per day??? You're burning it like there's no tomorrow. Or somebody is stealing your electricity. My experience from 2-5 person households is that 20 kWh per day is a _very heavy_ consumption. I couldn't even imagine for what is 100 kWh per day needed.

Re: Sales of electric cars up by 43% in 2020

#267

Post by petra »

dfgdghdf wrote: post #218
missedthecue wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autocracies seem to be the most efficient form of governance. It's a shame that this also means that they can do evil things very efficiently, given no one can stop them.

Efficient to what end? The whole purpose of representative democracy is that we disagree on what we are trying to achieve, but still need to have a somewhat coherent plan. Autocracies are "efficient" only in the sense that they skip a bulk of the work.

That's the theory.

But at least in the economic sphere, it seems that democracy doesn't have that much power, capitalism seems to call most of the shots.

At least with autocracy, there's more unity, so there's somewhat bigger chance to restrain capitalism.

Re: Sales of electric cars up by 43% in 2020

#268

Post by [deleted] »

ersiees wrote: post #231
Faaak wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true. Even with coal, the end-to-end emissions are better with electric cars. Proof: Poland is 800gCO₂/kWh [1]. With an average electric car (i.e. my hyundai ioniq), you average 11kWh/100km, or .11kWh/km. Taking emissions into account, that gives us 88gCO₂/km. A VW golf is 120gCO₂/km [2] [1]: https://www.electricitymap.org/map [2]: https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/cars/Car-CO2-and-fuel-economy-mp...

You might have missed the production of EVs that causes more CO2 than that of diesel cars.

[deleted]

Re: Sales of electric cars up by 43% in 2020

#269

Post by petra »

jacquesm wrote: post #254
tomp wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or will democracy require something akin to "martial law" to quickly decide and act on urgent matters? After the pandemic hit the West - Europe started locking down mid-March, Trump banned EU flights on 12th - Germany (a democracy of 80 million people) passed a financial aid package on 23rd of March; US (a democracy of 300 million people) followed on the 25th. So it's quite clear that democracies can react quickly,…

If anything I think the pandemic shows that the 'free West' sucks at responding to such threats. We've done miserably compared to Singapore, China and Vietnam.

That's true even if you leave the US out ?

Re: Sales of electric cars up by 43% in 2020

#270

Post by ClumsyPilot »

mobilemidget wrote: post #244
sircastor wrote: post #10

I’ll be interested to see the lifespan of EVs for “normal” people. I’ve got a 2012 Nissan LEAF we bought post-lease in 2015. I love it still, and don’t have any plans to replace it. The battery is not in great shape, but it gets me where I need to go. I am genuinely considering replacing the battery rather than buying another EV when the battery finally fails.

On the radio the other day there was a car show and they were talking about costs for battery replacements (and then it was advised to replace board computer, managing the batteries too) for a Tesla, I was shocked by the costs. I don't recall the exact but he was 30k+ euro lighter. I was interested in a electric car, but interest dropped significantly after hearing that. Maybe I don't know enough about cars to compar…

What does ut cost to replace an engine on a BMW? Thats probably thr closest equivalent
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