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Why can't I write code inside my browser?

tomcritchlow.com

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Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#261

Post by user-the-name »

rowanG077 wrote: post #214
user-the-name wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has nothing to do with visual programming. Which, by the way, is in massive, wide-scale use today. Game engines tend to use it, audio processing software uses it, and scientific control software also use them. But no, what I am talking about is all the tooling around the programming, which in turn relies on the massively archaic Unix command line.

Visual programming can work in specific domains. But I've never seen it used in large general purpose systems.

That is because it is not good for large general purpose systems. But it is good for specific domains.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#262

Post by aspaceman »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #216
dagw wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's still plenty of awesome things you can do in IT without ever touching code I spend a lot of my day working in a 'no code' visual programming environment and the difference between the solutions created by the people who know how to program and those who don't know how to program is massive. Those who don't know how to program tend to fail at coming up with non-trivial solutions and are not really able to debu…

Yup. That's because programming isn't just learning the vernacular. It's, first and foremost, learning to express concepts in a structured, super-precise way; learning to evolve systems in your head step by step, according to a set of arbitrary rules; learning the nature of computation. Familiarity with this type of thinking is visible not just in computer-related endeavors, but often in everyday life matters as well…

We gotta keep beating this drum though. You get people saying programming is just learning Node.Js or learning X or learning Y, and you end up with bootcamps and no computer science. Just reading this thread has been a true journey.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#263

Post by accountLost »

izacus wrote: post #139
kichimi wrote: post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

Programming COULD use a lot of simplification and removal of barriers. But still, just like you, I really hate the base attitude here. And for a different reason: I find that programmers who think like this, are also lazy when it comes to respecting the user. They're lazy when it comes to supporting accessibility. They're lazy when it somes to properly supporting i18n and making experience great for non-Americans. Th…

Even hardworking developers will sometimes don't care about the user experience. For example, Linus could have spent a few hours polishing the git CLI. Instead we have had millions of developer hours wasted in making sens of the CLI inconsistencies...

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#265

Post by lionkor »

user-the-name wrote: post #106
malux85 wrote: post #88

If the author has “been playing with the web and code for years” and is still “wtf” on /usr/local/bin in $PATH it shows a lack of discipline and structure in their learning. I see this in many in many of my apprentices - the desire for instant gratification and the lack of experience means they refuse to do anything that doesn’t immediately proceed them closer to their goal. Here’s the thing with programming - you ca…

/usr/local/bin has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with programming. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. It is completely superfluous knowledge. It is only required because, as the author correctly points out, the tools we use are BAD. They are absolutely fucking AWFUL. /usr/local/bin is an implementation detail from an OS nobody has used for decades. It's still here because we refuse to fix these ridiculous things. Nobody sho…

> /usr/local/bin is an implementation detail from an OS nobody has used for decades

Linux, MacOS, the BSDs... They're very much used today, not just decades ago. the /bin, /usr/bin and /usr/local/bin are very simple to understand after around 10 minutes of looking at the contents of / (root).

*/bin/ has binaries,

*/lib/ has libraries,

*/include/ has headers.

Its as simple as it gets, I dont see a way you could make a "better" system, other than maybe renaming "bin" to "binaries" for the 5 people on the planet with an irrational fear of common abbreviations.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#267

Post by user-the-name »

lionkor wrote: post #265
user-the-name wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

/usr/local/bin has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with programming. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. It is completely superfluous knowledge. It is only required because, as the author correctly points out, the tools we use are BAD. They are absolutely fucking AWFUL. /usr/local/bin is an implementation detail from an OS nobody has used for decades. It's still here because we refuse to fix these ridiculous things. Nobody sho…

> /usr/local/bin is an implementation detail from an OS nobody has used for decades Linux, MacOS, the BSDs... They're very much used today, not just decades ago. the /bin, /usr/bin and /usr/local/bin are very simple to understand after around 10 minutes of looking at the contents of / (root). */bin/ has binaries, */lib/ has libraries, */include/ has headers. Its as simple as it gets, I dont see a way you could make a…

And what does "usr" mean?

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#268

Post by lionkor »

user-the-name wrote: post #244
dijit wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he's speaking about First Edition UNIX, and, yes, we don't use that operating system. We just use operating systems which implement concepts derived from there. So, technically correct, though the argument has little merit.

The point is, "/usr/local/bin" is an artifact that made sense on that system, and that system alone, but we started using it elsewhere, and not it is so firmly established we do not dare to change it, even though it is a completely arbitrary choice with no relevance to modern systems.

> completely arbitrary choice with no relevance to modern systems

sounds like you never learned anything about computers before deciding you want to write software for one. It's pointless to argue with someone that has no idea about even the basics of a common OS.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#269

Post by user-the-name »

malux85 wrote: post #251
user-the-name wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason I say it has nothing to do with programming is that none of all of these tools that make you rely on this stuff NEED to do so. They chose to. But they don't need to. This is an implementation detail that is entirely orthogonal to the rest of the task of programming. Superfluous, and could be replaced at any time. And I note you immediately jump to the conclusion that I am too stupid to know these things th…

No, I was just saying that in my vast experience the two things that you described as: "absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with programming. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. It is completely superfluous knowledge" Were indeed critical components to all of these systems, and organisations, and that it's not a big ask to require a programmer to know them. Also, on what authority do you decide what is programming and what isn't?

The whole point is, there is no reason to require a programmer to know them. That is an arbitrary choice we have made.

We could make a different choice, and not require a programmer to know these things. They could do everything just as well without knowing this, if we let them.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#270

Post by user-the-name »

lionkor wrote: post #268
user-the-name wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is, "/usr/local/bin" is an artifact that made sense on that system, and that system alone, but we started using it elsewhere, and not it is so firmly established we do not dare to change it, even though it is a completely arbitrary choice with no relevance to modern systems.

> completely arbitrary choice with no relevance to modern systems sounds like you never learned anything about computers before deciding you want to write software for one. It's pointless to argue with someone that has no idea about even the basics of a common OS.

I've used and programmed computers for over three decades.
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