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Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

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Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#261

Post by samb1729 »

magicalhippo wrote: post #246
confluence_perf wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi michaelt, Thank you for the numbers -> I agree these are slow, and I can guarantee you that the Jira team is working on it (though I can't talk about details). These numbers are definitely outside of the goals. I appreciate the call out of "page to complete rendering and the progress bar at the top of the screen to disappear" and "until the issue, comment and buttons have all loaded". In a dream world of course, e…

> In a dream world of course, everything would load in FWIW our on-prem install uses <1s for opening issues, running a search etc. Too bad that's a dream world you've decided should no longer be...

I’m relatively sure it’s the lack of several host to host hops in the network requests that makes an on-prem install so much faster. The way Atlassian’s hosted services handle requests is mind-bogglingly awful and necessitates several round trips per request a lot of the time. It’s just poor architecture on their end.

We’re talking 3-5 redirects for some things they could just proxy on their backend. It’s dumb and there’s no amount of hardware or bandwidth a client can throw at the problem to fix it.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#262

Post by samb1729 »

cyberpunk wrote: post #233
jabberwcky wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to pile on a thread where you're already taking a lot of flack, but this point is really important to the future of Atlassian: > In a dream world of course, everything would load in As a contractor, I have more or less walked out of or refused interviews on discovering Atlassian toolset was in use. It's not because I hate your tooling (it is visually nice and very featureful), it's because the culture that del…

Hmmm. I mean. I'm a contractor too, and I share your pain, but ... I'm really impressed you walk out of paid work because of the issue tracker your client uses.. It sounds a bit like they dodged a bigger bullet than you did tbh mate. All these systems suck. You learn to live with them, for me I do this: Everything goes in OmniFocus, I have a keyboard shortcut to create a task that takes 15 mins before I finish work f…

> I'm really impressed you walk out of paid work because of the issue tracker your client uses.. It sounds a bit like they dodged a bigger bullet than you did tbh mate.

> I can't imagine how strongly you feel to turn down contractor rates due to a ticket system.. I mean, come on?

It may be the case that they are in such high demand they have practically free choice of work. That's how I interpreted it, at least.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#263

Post by magicalhippo »

samb1729 wrote: post #261
magicalhippo wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a dream world of course, everything would load in FWIW our on-prem install uses <1s for opening issues, running a search etc. Too bad that's a dream world you've decided should no longer be...

I’m relatively sure it’s the lack of several host to host hops in the network requests that makes an on-prem install so much faster. The way Atlassian’s hosted services handle requests is mind-bogglingly awful and necessitates several round trips per request a lot of the time. It’s just poor architecture on their end. We’re talking 3-5 redirects for some things they could just proxy on their backend. It’s dumb and th…

This should be quite glaring in any performance metrics collected though, shouldn't it?

I mean, I don't do web stuff (yet) but I can't imagine it's that difficult to figure out where several seconds get spent.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#264

Post by jabberwcky »

cyberpunk wrote: post #233
jabberwcky wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to pile on a thread where you're already taking a lot of flack, but this point is really important to the future of Atlassian: > In a dream world of course, everything would load in As a contractor, I have more or less walked out of or refused interviews on discovering Atlassian toolset was in use. It's not because I hate your tooling (it is visually nice and very featureful), it's because the culture that del…

Hmmm. I mean. I'm a contractor too, and I share your pain, but ... I'm really impressed you walk out of paid work because of the issue tracker your client uses.. It sounds a bit like they dodged a bigger bullet than you did tbh mate. All these systems suck. You learn to live with them, for me I do this: Everything goes in OmniFocus, I have a keyboard shortcut to create a task that takes 15 mins before I finish work f…

If you turned up to interview, or even worse, arrive at a client site, and they hand you a mouldy 80386 to work from, and point you to the basement, would you feel comfortable?

Jira is the mouldy 80386, and the client's culture is that basement where such things belong. I can't see how this is even being precious. I can find solid work on good teams with smart people anywhere, there is no reason I need to work in a basement permanently damaging my lungs.

Lame analogy, I know, but it's close enough.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#265

Post by samb1729 »

hchz wrote: post #87
confluence_perf wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to hear it's been a frustrating experience. I'm a PM for Confluence Cloud and we're always trying to make it better. Would you be willing to share more specifics, such as: - Pages with content X are the slowest - Trying to do A/B/C is annoyingly slow - etc ? (edit: looks like HN is severely limiting my reply rate so apologies for delays)

"My boss told me to generate a bunch of JIRAs in reaction to the recent accurate discussions on HN of how poor our performance is, so I need specific dit-dot issues to buff our team metrics rather than address the cause of the issues, which is a political non-starter"

There's nothing quite like having to spend a load of time justifying everything your team wants to do to the team above because they need to justify the things their teams need to do to the team above them.

Sometimes things are just obviously crap to the people tasked with working on them and having to jump through these kind of hoops eventually leaves an organisation with only the kind of people who are happy to keep doing it.

Nothing makes me stop ignoring recruiter messages quite like being asked to flesh out a JIRA ticket with technical details by a person who has literally no use for the details they ask me to write.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#266

Post by samb1729 »

saagarjha wrote: post #103
hchz wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"My boss told me to generate a bunch of JIRAs in reaction to the recent accurate discussions on HN of how poor our performance is, so I need specific dit-dot issues to buff our team metrics rather than address the cause of the issues, which is a political non-starter"

A more charitable interpretation might be “my boss won’t let me fix things unless I have specific comments about problems from people who use the software”.

If their boss doesn't let them just get to work without thoroughly documenting everything that's a larger problem. As good a time as any to start looking for jobs with bosses that don't suck.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#267

Post by isodev »

benbristow wrote: post #215
isodev wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JetBrains recently announced Space and it looks pretty cool (and fast): https://www.jetbrains.com/space/

Looks interesting, like a JetBrains Azure DevOps/VSTS.

Yes, they are going for a “all in one” including project and team org functions, source control etc. I’ve been using it for pet projects since the beta.

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#268

Post by guitarbill »

maccard wrote: post #88
guitarbill wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what do they work on? how many other features can you bolt onto an already mediocre wiki? or is it just bugfixes, keeping up with browser quirks, and useless UI "redesigns"/reskins?

As awful as confluence is, it's not really a mediocre wiki. It's the best I've used. (Out of confluence, notion, mediawiki and some god awful internal thing based on wordpress). It's interface sucks, the performance sucks, the editor sucks, search sucks, and it's still the best.

Point still stands, right?

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#269

Post by jiggawatts »

miken123 wrote: post #112
confluence_perf wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to hear it's been a frustrating experience. I'm a PM for Confluence Cloud and we're always trying to make it better. Would you be willing to share more specifics, such as: - Pages with content X are the slowest - Trying to do A/B/C is annoyingly slow - etc ? (edit: looks like HN is severely limiting my reply rate so apologies for delays) We're trying to focus on frustrating pages/experiences rather than number…

> Would you be willing to share more specifics That's something you could easily figure out yourself. E.g., just grabbing some random JIRA: https://hibernate.atlassian.net/jira/software/c/projects/HV/... Opening an issue in that tracker takes 24 seconds for me. Twenty-four.

Scroll up and down in the list.

They polyfill text!

That's just absurd.

To add a data point, I get 26 seconds on gigabit fibre that is 3 ms network latency away from "hibernate.atlassian.net".

Re: Atlassian Cloud ToS section 3.3(I) prohibits discussing performance issues

#270

Post by rswail »

miken123 wrote: post #112
confluence_perf wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to hear it's been a frustrating experience. I'm a PM for Confluence Cloud and we're always trying to make it better. Would you be willing to share more specifics, such as: - Pages with content X are the slowest - Trying to do A/B/C is annoyingly slow - etc ? (edit: looks like HN is severely limiting my reply rate so apologies for delays) We're trying to focus on frustrating pages/experiences rather than number…

> Would you be willing to share more specifics That's something you could easily figure out yourself. E.g., just grabbing some random JIRA: https://hibernate.atlassian.net/jira/software/c/projects/HV/... Opening an issue in that tracker takes 24 seconds for me. Twenty-four.

Average of 15s for me, including watching the issue sidebar show a bunch of fields, with "5 more fields" and then refresh and remove that option.

I started using JIRA in 2008. It was faster then.

If this is what the "cloud" version is going to be, then we will be looking for alternatives, even though we're an Aussie company and I would like to be supportive.

As for Confluence, the wiki is just ok. The editor is clumsy and occasionally I have to go into raw HTML just to get highlighting, bolding etc to work.

If Atlassian is going all-in on cloud, then it needs to realize that cloud isn't "run our software, but not on-prem". Just like MYOB had to learn, it needs to be rewritten so that the web front end is streamlined and cached separately to the underlying API.

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