Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

So you've made a mistake and it's public

meta.wikimedia.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 403 posts

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#261

Post by colechristensen »

nxmnxm99 wrote: post #144
textgel wrote: post #127

I think a major point missing in amongst the discussion so far, and one that's causing a lot of crosstalk is whether you should even be apologising at all. For example. Progressives are widely known for their enthusiastic use of forcing people into public apologies for perceived crimes against the faith or for not acquiescing to unreasonable demands which can then be framed as a perceived wrong. I think a lot of the…

There are striking similarities between modern progressivism/wokeness and various church clergy throughout the ages. I'm glad you made that connection.

I say this repeatedly, the west largely abandoned religion because people found the ways adherents acted towards others to be inexcusable... it was a failed attribution though because religion didn’t make people like that and getting rid of religion hasn’t gotten rid of the behaviors. We still have people praying loudly on the corners for all to see (Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.) We still have people persecuting others for their beliefs, we still have people ready to fight holy wars.

It is a very human behavior, and it is easily exploited and in an emergent way exploits itself in whatever way is convenient in any age.

It is clear to me that there are very smart people and very stupid people stoking the flames on this human vulnerability that so few people care to notice.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#262

Post by fairity »

nicoburns wrote: post #226
fairity wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crucial to who? GP is outlining a roadmap in the best interest of the accused.

Crucial to society. It's in the best interest of the accused that other people implement steps 6 and 7. And so realistically they ought to be implementing them too. My point is that we shouldn't just be looking out for our interests. We should be working co-operatively to look out for everybody's interests. Ultimately this benefits ourselves too, but that's not why we should do it.

I think the current system is broken. We should be trying to align our incentives. Urging people to act against their own self-interests is self-defeating.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#263

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew »

smsm42 wrote: post #196
jmartrican wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Apologizing may keep the mob size small and insignificant.

Did it ever happen? Did anybody actually get out of being cancelled by mobs by apologizing?

The point of apologising isn't to avoid consequences. It's intended to mitigate three sorts of damages: that inflicted on whoever suffered because of you, the damage society experiences any time its rules are broken, and the damage you have done to yourself by breaking some moral standard you believe in.

To that end, an apology that allows s/o to "get out" as in "saw no further consequences" isn't necessarily what's being claimed, because it still needs to come with (some) costs, even if they are mostly symbolic.

And, yes, of course there are people apologising for all sorts of behaviour that's being criticised every day. A Google News search has about five dozen examples from just the last day or two[1]. If apologies are never beneficial, I doubt they would be used that often.

Apologies are also a central factor in the most formalised system of "being cancelled" we have, the criminal justice system.

As to "getting out" of "being cancelled" by "mobs" I wouldn't know since I already have trouble identifying what that's supposed to mean.

[1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=apologized&client=safari&rls...

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#264

Post by underdeserver »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #172

I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she go…

Apologies are complex things. If you dole them out like candy they lose their power, and since an apology's power comes from your dignity, it follows that you lose your dignity.

So when do you apologize? An apology is great when you've hurt someone by making a mistake - which I would define as something you wouldn't do knowing how it would turn out. You've made a deliberate decision that in hindsight was an error of judgement. Hopefully that doesn't happen often.

What does happen often is a decision you make that hurt someone's feelings - maybe you declined to merge a pull request because the patch wasn't good, or you skipped a colleague's wedding because you were sick; in those cases you can maybe make it up to them or explain, but don't apologize - beyond the "I'm sorry I couldn't come, but I had a fever" one-liner, which is more sympathy than an apology.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#265

Post by learnstats2 »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #172

I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she go…

> I did a lot of sincere public apologizing

If you generally live by your own values, and act according to them, then (in my opinion) you should rarely need to apologise for that.

Why did you need to do a lot of apologizing, I'm curious?

If I think of particular people I personally know who frequently apologise, it often seems to me that they are doing that to centre and prioritise their own experience ahead of other people's - which perhaps was exactly the problem in the first place. That type of apology can taste slightly sour.

I find that listening is a more important aspect of apologising than talking.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#266

Post by crispyporkbites »

DenisM wrote: post #114
macspoofing wrote: post #23

I'm not sure apologizing publicly has made anything better for any individual, especially in the current moral panic climate. Mobs don't accept apologies. Public apologies stamp official guilt on the individual and therefore serve as a license for the mob to further punish them because now they have admitted their fault and therefore are 'officially' guilty of the crime. Public apologies, therefore, are the metaphori…

People in strong position stand to gain by apologizing, while people in weak position stand to lose. One must consider one's standing before dabbling. In my own company I try to apologize every time I screw something up. I know my position is unassailable, and my team members should have trust that their leadership is in touch with reality. I am also cognizant of the fact that no hired employee has the same level of…

That’s more of a power play than an apology. As you said only you can admit error without repercussion

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#267

Post by core-questions »

mcguire wrote: post #101
core-questions wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Denying that you have made a mistake is likely to piss off the people who would otherwise be willing to move on. Which is why you don't deny it either; you move on, avoiding the Streisand Effect as best as possible by not engaging. It's passive denial vs. active denial. I'm not saying this is moral or good - I'm only saying that it seems to work for people. It's a question of game theory. We can get better apologie…

There will always be people who disagree with you, and who will continue to make public attacks on you. They're not the ones you are apologizing to, or for. Pretending you did not make an error will eventually catch up to you, in the opinions of those who would view an apology to your credit and in the fact that it leads to you making more mistakes and not correcting them. " ...absolving the mob of any evil when they…

> That's a little excessively dramatic, don't you think?

It's 2020, everything's a little excessively dramatic

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#268

Post by bxk1 »

laughinghan wrote: post #234
fairity wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The number of people in this thread arguing that apologies can only make things worse is shocking. Are these the same people who reject addressing war crimes with truth and reconciliation, and instead advocate "deny everything, make counteraccusations"? I think you're misunderstanding their claim. They are not making a claim that denial is better for society. They are making a claim that denial is better for the ac…

Thank you for your thoughtful response. "The accused" is interesting framing. I would hope that no one expects the innocent but accused to apologize for something they didn't do. For the accused who are guilty, if we agree that denial is worse for society but currently better for the guilty, what can we do to change that, so that it is better for them to acknowledge fault and worse to remain in denial?

> if we agree that denial is worse for society but currently better for the guilty, what can we do to change that

Why is it worse for society? Guilt is already an emotion that exists for society, not for self-interest, it relies on morals, which all are learned through other people. If people are leaning more towards denial, it means that the cost for an individual to do something immoral is already too high, doesn't leave much room for mistakes that people inevitably make from time to time, so more people denying might be a natural feedback loop to make more space.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#269

Post by robaato »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #235
CapitalistCartr wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who are what santoshalper described as "high ego" are usually charismatic, and that makes a difference with everything.

The probably not obvious at this point context is the comment I replied to was an early reply (the first one?) and is probably assuming "The issue is you are a woman and it must have been a male dominant environment -- just like here on HN where DoreenMichele is a woman in a predominantly male environment." In spite of me promptly replying to say "no, that wasn't the issue," there has been at least one other comment…

Kudos!

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#270

Post by robaato »

nostrademons wrote: post #230
DoreenMichele wrote: post #172

I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she go…

I think the cure for that is often to spend some time away from the keyboard and social interaction and think "What are the standards I hold myself to? What kind of communities do I wish to be part of, and what sort of behavior is required from the members of those communities to maintain the tone that I'd like to see?" Then hold yourself to it, and actively seek out communities where the members interact in the ways…

Agree - take a deep breath/sleep on it. Things look different in the morning...
Post reply on HN