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So you've made a mistake and it's public

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Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#221

Post by freedomben »

core-questions wrote: post #213
nfoz wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Canadian, I was quick to realize that the mere word "sorry" has a different meaning to some people down south. In Canada I'll just say it casually to mean a polite "hope I'm not troubling you" or "sorry that happened to you", and never thought of it as immediately declaring responsibility let alone fragility. But in the US, I've been pounced on for a casual use of that word, as if I'd announced failure and that…

As a Canadian, you're missing out on the other critical half of the 'sorry'. You step on my foot. I look at you, and say "sorry", and pull my foot away. You abashedly also "sorry" and we move on. Am I apologizing? Hardly! The full sentence is, "Sorry, did you just actually step on my foot, what the hell?" and your reply is "Sorry, yes, I did do that, didn't mean to, apologies". Then the problem is solved and we move…

Are you from the pacific northwest by chance? My wife is and she will constantly apologize for things that are 100% the other person's fault. It really bugs me, especially because the other person will some times say, "oh it's ok" (as they are accepting her admission of guilt) and I usually say something like, "Honey, that wasn't your fault, you shouldn't be apologizing."

On the flip side, when someone runs in to me or steps on my foot or something, I'll usually just look at them, giving them an opportunity to politely say, "Sorry about that." My wife tells me that it is extremely rude when I do that, but that feels normal to me.

I'm really wondering if where we grew up is playing a big part here?

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#222

Post by DoreenMichele »

santoshalper wrote: post #220
DoreenMichele wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a homeschooling/parenting list. Those tend to skew female and this one did. Though the reality is that I have never been on an email list that was mostly female membership that wasn't poisoned by sexism. There is inevitably one or two men who have figured out how to participate in the discussion without the entire group wanting their head on a pike and you can't disagree with these men because a zillion women…

I noticed in this comment that you spent a lot of time talking about yourself and specifically praising yourself and your contributions to this community. Having no other insight other than what you are providing me, it seems like you tend to make yourself the center of discussion and honestly, you come across as high-ego. People like that are often polarizing in communities and tend the shift the conversation from "…

Perhaps the best practice would be to learn to make your point without personalizing it so much.

Yes, generally speaking, that's a best practice and one I follow as best I can. Unfortunately, it can't always be followed without hamstringing one's ability to say something meaningful and address more important issues than the tendency of the world to geegaw at me for existing.

I wasn't asking for advice. Giving advice in a situation like this one tends to boil down to blaming the victim rather than trying to understand what they are saying about a larger social issue and patterns of behavior involving many people, not just themselves.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#223

Post by fastball »

microtherion wrote: post #208
fastball wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things like this can be hard to ignore when, say, the angry mob is trying to get you fired.

Admittedly, this can be a problematic situation, especially when part of the original mistake was speaking about something employment related without being a spokesperson for said employer. Another problematic situation can be if the mistake involves actual illegal acts. In those cases, discretion (omitting the apology or keeping it to an absolute minimum) may indeed be the better part of valor. But even in those sit…

I think people in this thread are talking at cross-purposes.

On the one hand, you have the people who are talking about when you genuinely make a mistake, and recognize it as such before public outcry.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have people that maybe feel that they were acting / talking / behaving in a way that is normal but are being told that they made a mistake. In these circumstances, there is usually the issue that the nature of the mistake is quite subjective.

In the former case, your strategy is probably a good one. In the latter, I think the "don't apologize" is probably the better way to go, for the reasons outlined by GC.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#224

Post by [deleted] »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #155
bosswipe wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Progressives are widely known for things like increasing the minimum wage, expanding access to health care, or legalizing drugs. I've never heard progressives pushing for forced public apologies.

AFAIK, Cortes is a Progressive[0], and a congressperson, which puts her in a position of power. She encouraged her supporters to create a list of Trump supporters so they can be denied employment in the future[1]. Jennifer Rubin, likely also a Progressive[2], said: “any [Republican] now promoting rejection of an election or calling to not to follow the will of voters or making baseless allegations of fraud should nev…

[deleted]

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#225

Post by fairity »

nicoburns wrote: post #160
mcguire wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* Step 3 is probably a bad idea, if any attention is being paid to "the individual people/entity affected". * Step 4b is a bad idea; it has too great a possibility of re-raising the issue. * Steps 5, 6, and 7 are completely optional and probably not recommended. If Step 4a worked, keep in mind that the strategy you have got you where you are. * Given the above, Step 2 is a waste of time. This message brought to you b…

Step 6 and 7 are absolutely crucial. People not accepting blame (even privately to themselves) and never changing is even worse than people aggressively and publicly demanding apologies for wrongdoing.

Crucial to who? GP is outlining a roadmap in the best interest of the accused.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#226

Post by nicoburns »

fairity wrote: post #225
nicoburns wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Step 6 and 7 are absolutely crucial. People not accepting blame (even privately to themselves) and never changing is even worse than people aggressively and publicly demanding apologies for wrongdoing.

Crucial to who? GP is outlining a roadmap in the best interest of the accused.

Crucial to society. It's in the best interest of the accused that other people implement steps 6 and 7. And so realistically they ought to be implementing them too.

My point is that we shouldn't just be looking out for our interests. We should be working co-operatively to look out for everybody's interests. Ultimately this benefits ourselves too, but that's not why we should do it.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#227

Post by jeffmcjunkin »

freedomben wrote: post #221
core-questions wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Canadian, you're missing out on the other critical half of the 'sorry'. You step on my foot. I look at you, and say "sorry", and pull my foot away. You abashedly also "sorry" and we move on. Am I apologizing? Hardly! The full sentence is, "Sorry, did you just actually step on my foot, what the hell?" and your reply is "Sorry, yes, I did do that, didn't mean to, apologies". Then the problem is solved and we move…

Are you from the pacific northwest by chance? My wife is and she will constantly apologize for things that are 100% the other person's fault. It really bugs me, especially because the other person will some times say, "oh it's ok" (as they are accepting her admission of guilt) and I usually say something like, "Honey, that wasn't your fault, you shouldn't be apologizing." On the flip side, when someone runs in to me…

Oregonian here. I joke that we're the Canadians of the United States.

"Sorry" in regular conversation is a social nicety, very different from a sincere apology, even though the sincere apology may incorporate that same word.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#228

Post by CapitalistCartr »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #222
santoshalper wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I noticed in this comment that you spent a lot of time talking about yourself and specifically praising yourself and your contributions to this community. Having no other insight other than what you are providing me, it seems like you tend to make yourself the center of discussion and honestly, you come across as high-ego. People like that are often polarizing in communities and tend the shift the conversation from "…

Perhaps the best practice would be to learn to make your point without personalizing it so much. Yes, generally speaking, that's a best practice and one I follow as best I can. Unfortunately, it can't always be followed without hamstringing one's ability to say something meaningful and address more important issues than the tendency of the world to geegaw at me for existing. I wasn't asking for advice. Giving advice…

People who are what santoshalper described as "high ego" are usually charismatic, and that makes a difference with everything.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#229

Post by fairity »

laughinghan wrote: post #188

The number of people in this thread arguing that apologies can only make things worse is shocking. Are these the same people who reject addressing war crimes with truth and reconciliation, and instead advocate "deny everything, make counteraccusations"? A proper apology—one that (1) acknowledges the specific harm caused, (2) acknowledges responsibility and remorse for specific choices, (3) explains how they hope to m…

> The number of people in this thread arguing that apologies can only make things worse is shocking. Are these the same people who reject addressing war crimes with truth and reconciliation, and instead advocate "deny everything, make counteraccusations"?

I think you're misunderstanding their claim.

They are not making a claim that denial is better for society.

They are making a claim that denial is better for the accused (and only in certain situations).

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#230

Post by nostrademons »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #172

I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she go…

I think the cure for that is often to spend some time away from the keyboard and social interaction and think "What are the standards I hold myself to? What kind of communities do I wish to be part of, and what sort of behavior is required from the members of those communities to maintain the tone that I'd like to see?" Then hold yourself to it, and actively seek out communities where the members interact in the ways that you'd like to be a part of.

When you've made a mistake or someone claims you have made a mistake, step back outside yourself and look at your behavior dispassionately. If you don't meet the standards you've held for yourself, then apologize and make things right. But if after really separating yourself from the situating and thinking about it, you still feel like you acted correctly - stand your ground and don't engage. Or explain why you did what you did and what the consequences would be otherwise.

Or if all else fails, give one of those evasive "I'm sorry you feel the way you do" non-apologies and move on, like corporations do all the time. This is really a form of boundary-setting, and basically means "I find your needs to be not worth my time and energy, so I will extricate myself from this relationship in as inoffensive a way as I can and devote no further energy to engaging with you."

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