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After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

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Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#261
post #199

Not an american here, so it's more of a general comment. I'm all for investing in and investigating nuclear power -- after all, the humanity needed several decades to make electricity itself safe at all; if we manage to make nuclear safer and indeed manageable, that's a fine thing, scientifically speaking. It's good to have options. However, we should be keeping an eye on the costs. Nuclear energy is cheap, but dispo…

What if we shot it in to space? Doesn't Space X think they can get cargo down to $100/kg? That would be a few hundred million in costs for all of the worlds nuclear waste annually.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#262
post #82
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish one person who mentioned the long game would also mention that nuclear accidents can make a place uninhabitable for thousands of years. If I had a dollar for every time a pro-nuclear person (not that I'm not) ignored that, or peak uranium...

Just look at Japan, most of the region around the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant has actually been reopened to the public already: > https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/07/20/national/beach-... > https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/04/05/national/evacue... Looking at the radiation levels, most places are already back to save levels: > https://www.pref.fukushima.lg.jp/site/portal-english/en02-01... You ha…

Neither Fukushima nor Chernobyl were worst-case-scenario.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#263
post #134
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish one person who mentioned the long game would also mention that nuclear accidents can make a place uninhabitable for thousands of years. If I had a dollar for every time a pro-nuclear person (not that I'm not) ignored that, or peak uranium...

> nuclear accidents can make a place uninhabitable for thousands of years. Ignoring the fact that meltdown is not even possible in modern designs, even in a Fukushima total power loss scenario, note that the Bikini atoll is safe to visit at this point and it was the site of repeated nuclear testing. It's hard to see how nuclear power plants, which are designed to avoid any possibility of having a critical mass, could…

I would like to hear more about "nuclear meltdowns not even possible." You mean on designs that people are actually talking about implenting, or just the state-of-the-art stuff that we are nowhere close to implementing, especially in poorer nations?

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#264
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I've seen one of these threads on HN asserting that nuclear is safer than the alternatives and I've looked more closely into the claims, I've wound up unconvinced because of omissions like the one you've identified. It's gotten to the point that I tend to tune out pro-nuclear arguments on HN. :( I'm sure there are good arguments in there somewhere, but I don't have the bandwidth to sort them out from the m…

The argument is that the human race gets to survive and progress, unlike the one where we destroy our planet with a run-away carbon dioxide greenhouse effect.

You're missing some. For example, nuclear is implemented on a wide scale, but it's far too late to mitigate catastrophic climate change, and we are unable to prevent meltdowns in the insuing decline, accelerating the decline.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#265
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Partly I think nuclear triggers a cognitive bias where humans will tolerate ongoing low-level shittiness, but really struggle with large catastrophes, even if the catastrophe is far less damaging than the ongoing low-level damage. However, I think the resistance is also because the nature of the catastrophe is different. Have coal or gas plants ever created a Chernobyl-style exclusion zone? I know that mining/drillin…

> Partly I think nuclear triggers a cognitive bias where humans will tolerate ongoing low-level shittiness, but really struggle with large catastrophes, even if the catastrophe is far less damaging than the ongoing low-level damage. How come hydroelectric dams don't get treated this way? In 2019 a dam in Brazil had a catastrophic failure that cost the lives of 270 people. In 2019! In 1975 a dam failed in China and th…

Hydro disasters have been large, but are tangible/sensible, immediate, and resolve relatively quickly (days for rescue, months for recovery, possibly a few years for rebuilding).

Banqiao is now home to 17 million people (after 40 years, largely achieved within a decade or so). Meantime, Chernobyl still hasn't seen complete containment (after 34 years), and Fukushima hasn't begun initial cleanup (after 9 years). The two nuclear sites will be obligatory nature preserves for centuries, containing still-lethal risks.

The specific failings at Banqiao were virtually all managerial and political, not technical; poor engineering, inadequate safety provisions, underestimated environmental and operational risks, poor contingency planning, unforseen perfect storm (literally), severed communications, insufficient warnings, no community disaster preparation, inadequate rescue and recovery. None of these failures are specific to hydro, all apply to nuclear power, and as non-engineering problems there is no technical fix that makes them go away.

In Banqiao, about 25,000 people died in the immediate innundation. Another 150,000 died in the following weeks of starvation and disease. There's no great mystery as to how such deaths are avoided: floodwaters are mitigated by high ground and evacuation centres; starvation and disease by food, water, and medical stocks; and rescue & recovery by trained teams and equipment. Reestablishment of communications, transport, and utilities is critical.

China at the time was desperately poor, politically dysfunctional, and gambled hugely on risk and lost. Other major hydro disasters tend to share these traits.

As do many regions looking to nuclear power for salvation.

(I've mentioned Banqiao several times over the years on HN. It's a terrifying but educational tragedy. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... Wikipedia article recommended: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banqiao_Dam))

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#266
post #109
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear waste is actually the best kind of waste because of its very high density and the fact that it's solid. The density is so high that the US has accumulated just 83,000 tons over several decades operating nuclear power plants: > https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/5-fast-facts-about-spent-... That may sound a lot but compared to coal or, in fact, any other type of power generating plant, the amount is absolutely…

> compared to coal or, in fact, any other type of power generating plant so nuclear creates less nuclear waste than PV, wind, or geothermal?

Absolutely. The entirety of the nuclear waste from US power generation fits in a volume the footprint of an American football field, and 10 meters high: https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/5-fast-facts-about-spent-...

Maybe geothermal creates less waste, since you just need to pipe water into the ground and drive a steam turbine. But most of the world doesn't have access to geothermal power.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to distinguish current rates and worst case scenario rates, but the worst case scenario rate for fossil fuels is astronomical as well.

Not just worst case scenario "rates", but the scenarios themselves. What is the worst case scenario from a completely unmitigated core meltdown versus whatever the most extreme failure mode of, say, a coal plant?

Pollution from coal power kills about a million per year, and that's not counting accidents. I don't know why you'd want a "completely unmitigated meltdown," but even if terrorists rent a 747, hoist an active reactor, and drop it onto the middle of Manhattan, it will kill less than the non-failure mode of coal plants during the same year.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop with this. Nuclear is the only way to keep our current level of society. Our solar plants are going to lead to massive poisoned landfills due to their heavy metals. They are hard to recycle and so many are just dumping them. Modern nuclear can meet all our needs and stop global warming. If we pursued nuclear in the last century, we would be facing global warming now.

More solar and wind and energy conversion and storage mechanisms can also keep our current level of society. Why can't we subsidize renewable forms of energy for trillions of dollars if our lives are truly at risk? Will these take any longer to spin up than nuclear? And are you suggesting that solar plants really create more toxins to dispose of than nuclear? Really?

Yes. The Swiss have safely encapsulated their waste into a building smaller than Norte Dame stadium. It will safely house their waste for centuries to come. The US doesn’t recycle its waste because the Democrats were afraid brown people would get nuclear material in transit and build dirty bombs. Europeans knew that was stupid and both recycle and store their waste reasonably.

Further if we spend money on thorium you don’t have much waste at all. In fact you can use your current waste as the medium to kickstart the thorium reaction.

Solar and chemical storage requires poisonous materials that will leech into the ground water.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#269
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just that "The existing regulatory structure for nuclear power was designed for the previous generation of reactors." It was designed specifically to bankrupt them. It was designed to make them unprofitable. Just changing an ordinary light bulb in a nuclear power plant is all sorts of certification and paperwork. There was a ratchet effect on regulations. You could always add more, but nobody would take resp…

That's not quite why rigorous regulations were put in place. There have been thousands of tanker oil spills, 3,000,000 gallons of oil spilled from US pipelines each year, hundreds of coal-ash spills... In that context, Nuclear wasn't over-regulated, other power sources are severely, dangerously under-regulated. The excellent safety record of Nuclear points towards the regulations being rather effective. I will grant…

>That's not quite why rigorous regulations were put in place.

Yes it is. Greenpeace and the like paraded Chernobyl and three mile island around and because it was the 70s and 80s and pollution was a big problem politicians tripped over each other to be seen Doing Something (TM) and that's more or less how we got the current regulatory environment. Of course their intentions were good but it's perfectly possible to both have good intentions and be wrong.

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