Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny • Hacker News Board

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#261

Post by john_moscow » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:35 PM UTC

tmp538394722 wrote: post #241

john_moscow wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've googled up the bodycam videos of the incident [0]. I think, the police started acting the way they did, because the suspect didn't stop when the police clearly asked him to do so, and pushed one of the officers when they grabbed him. It would be fair to call it racism, if there was another instance of a white suspect acting the same way, and getting treated differently. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5Ncye…

Elijah was wearing headphones. Since you’ve seen the video, how long from the moment the police are out of their cars before they put their hands on Elijah? Would you put your hands on someone Who showed no physical resistance in that amount of time? The Police escalate quickly, and then, since the situation has escalated, feel justified in their response, which killed Elijah. They killed Elijah.

Well, how many people wearing masks (pre-pandemic) would be trying to avoid getting identified while committing a robbery? How many people pushing the officer away would be trying to attack them next? Does police have a way of knowing in advance, whether this exact mask-wearing arrest-resisting individual is actually a threat?

I don't think it is entirely fair to put 100% of the blame on the police. A much healthier solution would be to try de-escalating general tensions between the police and the population.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#262

Post by luckydata » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:37 PM UTC

Stupulous wrote: post #203

quadrifoliate wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

8 cases across three years in one city, where some of those cases were just paramedics asking for a second opinion, does not seem to indicate a very widespread issue across the US, especially when the city being investigated is know to have a bad police department. First of all, it's a big jump from "the article only mentions 8 cases across the US" to "there were only 8 cases across the US". The case of Elijah McClai…

I agree that this is something that should never happen at all, but you're hyperbolizing the parent's statement. They didn't say there are only 8 cases in the US, they said it's uncommon. Taking Minneapolis as an average (parent believes they are worse than average), it happens to .00063% of the population there per year or 1890 Americans per year. I'm having trouble finding the arrest rate in Minneapolis, which woul…

It shouldn’t happen at all. The amount of people ok with “a little dystopian policing” is disturbing to me.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#263

Post by peteradio » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:39 PM UTC

jupp0r wrote: post #212

tehwebguy wrote: post #158

Police should never be permitted to direct medical professionals to do anything to a person in their custody unless it is to save their life. Medical professionals should be hyper-trained on how to tell police “hell no” and to report their requests to an independent agency for investigation. There are other types of scenarios where out of control cops bully doctors and nurses into doing illegal things, two that I hav…

On the other hand: at least they are asking medical professionals instead of giving shots themselves.

You say that like its a positive. It would be much more straightforward to prosecute an officer injecting ketamine. The medical "professionals" are catspaws.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#264

Post by pessimizer » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:39 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #208

TeaDrunk wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It says that on the books that you’re allowed to defend against excessive force, but they’ll still charge you for assault for bleeding on their uniform. (And then only retract this when the media outcry becomes too difficult to ignore.)

Being charged is not the same as being found guilty. Cops are not lawyers or judges.

If it's just your word against theirs, they might as well be. Everybody is against you except for your low-paid advocate (the public defender) who's working on 100 cases at the same time as they're working on yours. It's different for the wealthy.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#265

Post by john_moscow » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:41 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #237

john_moscow wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've googled up the bodycam videos of the incident [0]. I think, the police started acting the way they did, because the suspect didn't stop when the police clearly asked him to do so, and pushed one of the officers when they grabbed him. It would be fair to call it racism, if there was another instance of a white suspect acting the same way, and getting treated differently. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5Ncye…

> It would be fair to call it racism, if there was another instance of a white suspect acting the same way, and getting treated differently. What about if the white person in the same situation wasn't even asked to stop in the first place? It's not just about "how police treats blacks vs whites who refuse to stop" but also about "how often police asks blacks vs whites to stop".

That would be fair if you could detangle if from specific suspicious behavioral patterns. Like wearing a mask (pre-pandemic) in a neighborhood where robberies by mask-wearing perpetrators are common.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#266

Post by throwawayWSQA » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:44 PM UTC

bobowzki wrote: post #185

I'm an anesthesiologist. This is insane.

what and why? Specifically, what and why is insane and how is being an anesthesiologist relevant?

Note, I don't think police should inject anyone with a substance (personally, I'd rather get shot with a bullet than involuntarily shot with an anesthetic), but how is being an anesthesiologist relevant?

The question: "should cops direct paramedic to administer K shots" is an ethics, or a religious, question. Not a medical one. Certainly relevant medical questions can inform the debate; questions such as "how to determine safe and effective dosage of an anesthetic in field situations" "What does the person experience when involuntarily subjected to this drug?".

A very important medical question can be: "How lethal is this technique?" So that the technique's lethality can be properly classified for street use.

Subjecting the person to mortal danger is not anesthesiology. It's ethics, law, and religion.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#267

Post by pessimizer » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:47 PM UTC

guscost wrote: post #155

vmception wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In China there are “execution vans” with no other purpose even suggested: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van From your article > Liu was convicted > a reprieve after appealing > given a retrial Your entire article describes convicted death row prisoners, whether we agree with or respect China's due process at all. Why did you think it bolstered your argument to talk about Chinese due process in an articl…

You think all the other non-“notable” people executed in one of those things got the appropriate legal protections too? Anyway I’m just trying to say that if you want to apply the most unfriendly interpretation to some happening in America, in order to compare it to “non-American Marxist regimes”, at least be consistent.

> You think all the other non-“notable” people executed in one of those things got the appropriate legal protections too?

Why bother even reading up on it if just making things up will work?

You think everyone in China is a saint? Why would somebody go through all of the time and expense to execute you if there weren't a reason?

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#268

Post by ashtonkem » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:48 PM UTC

tehwebguy wrote: post #158

Police should never be permitted to direct medical professionals to do anything to a person in their custody unless it is to save their life. Medical professionals should be hyper-trained on how to tell police “hell no” and to report their requests to an independent agency for investigation. There are other types of scenarios where out of control cops bully doctors and nurses into doing illegal things, two that I hav…

The cops involved went back to where they killed Elijah McCain and posed for a group photo, reportedly re-enacting his death.

This is the behavior I’d expect from a serial killer.

Edit: they then distributed or showed this photo to the rest of the precinct. We know because a whistleblower notified the media. To my eye, this means that they expected the rest of the precinct to approve of this behavior, which is extremely alarming.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#269

Post by andi999 » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:48 PM UTC

So can stuff you say after administering ketamin used in court against you?

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#270

Post by wonderwonder » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:48 PM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #265

coldtea wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would be fair to call it racism, if there was another instance of a white suspect acting the same way, and getting treated differently. What about if the white person in the same situation wasn't even asked to stop in the first place? It's not just about "how police treats blacks vs whites who refuse to stop" but also about "how often police asks blacks vs whites to stop".

That would be fair if you could detangle if from specific suspicious behavioral patterns. Like wearing a mask (pre-pandemic) in a neighborhood where robberies by mask-wearing perpetrators are common.

Is it illegal to wear a mask? If the answer is no then the police have no right to stop him for wearing a mask. Police having the leeway to determine what is suspicious vs having to obey the law is what leads to thousands of minorities being stopped, roughed up and arrested for resisting arrest. If you are a minority and do nothing wrong, how many stops for being black would it take before you became a little defensive or frustrated? Imagine your life being constantly interrupted by uniform wearing people with a track record of killing people with your complexion.