Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#261

Post by freeflight » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:51 PM UTC

peroporque wrote: post #103

donjoe wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like a couple of years ago, once you fucked up, you resigned out of respect to your office/job/position. Looking at our current Minister of Transport 'Andi Scheuer', this does not seem to be the case any more. He is still in office after burning more than € 500M in the recent toll scandal [0]. [0]: https://www.dw.com/en/german-transport-minister-blasted-over...

Or even worse, von der Leyen got promoted to be head of the EU. I mean, wtf!

That's been a rather old joke among Germans: Politicians we don't like we just promote to the EU parliament to get rid of them.

Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#262

Post by papito » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:55 PM UTC

cosmodisk wrote: post #38

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #4

Also, under Helmut Kohl, despite advice from experts to use fiber, the German government wired the whole country with copper instead because the ministry of infrastructure at the time had stocks in the copper business leaving the country's internet behind Ukraine or Belarus.[1] If you're on the DAX or a politician, you're untouchable in Germany and lots of people inside and outside of Germany have no idea of how insa…

All western countries are corrupt. The difference from the usual suspects is the way it's done. If in Russia, it may be as simple as cash in hand, in Germany or Britain it will be kids placement into a nice job, maybe a donation to a family run charity org, or a contract to friend's friend's construction company. Or even the good old one,where you do a favour and 5-7 years later, once not in government position anymo…

It used to be that way. Right now in the United States, the level of corruption that we see is absolutely off the charts and out in the open.

It's akin to a strange alien weapon for most Americans, that goes off near you, putting you in a state of trance, and you don't even know what's happening.

There is brazenness and blatancy to it, as in "yeah, I did it, what are YOU going to do about it?"

In many other countries the remedy is torches and pitchforks, but here in the U.S. the crime syndicate infesting Washington D.C. is protected by a thick layer of laws and "norms". That's why William Barr can go on TV and say things like "winners write history". Try that shit elsewhere and see what happens.

In the developing world, corruption is quiet, it's subtle. No one is supposed to know you have 5 summer houses, because that makes people jealous and very very stabby. And that's the difference.

I only see it because I grew up in post-Soviet Ukraine. Americans don't have that unfortunate experience.

Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#263

Post by freeflight » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 10:03 PM UTC

kensai wrote: post #203

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #4

Also, under Helmut Kohl, despite advice from experts to use fiber, the German government wired the whole country with copper instead because the ministry of infrastructure at the time had stocks in the copper business leaving the country's internet behind Ukraine or Belarus.[1] If you're on the DAX or a politician, you're untouchable in Germany and lots of people inside and outside of Germany have no idea of how insa…

I am an expat living in Germany. I laugh out loud at such amazing statements such as yours. Whatever Germany's shortcomings, its heavy history, its complicated laws and customs... I would still take this over any other Western country.

Nobody is saying Germany is a horrible place, but pointing out problems is the only way one can fix them.

That's why "complaining on a high level" is a rather German thing.

Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#264

Post by jariel » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

papito wrote: post #262

cosmodisk wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All western countries are corrupt. The difference from the usual suspects is the way it's done. If in Russia, it may be as simple as cash in hand, in Germany or Britain it will be kids placement into a nice job, maybe a donation to a family run charity org, or a contract to friend's friend's construction company. Or even the good old one,where you do a favour and 5-7 years later, once not in government position anymo…

It used to be that way. Right now in the United States, the level of corruption that we see is absolutely off the charts and out in the open. It's akin to a strange alien weapon for most Americans, that goes off near you, putting you in a state of trance, and you don't even know what's happening. There is brazenness and blatancy to it, as in "yeah, I did it, what are YOU going to do about it?" In many other countries…

No, it's not that bad in America.

The corruption we see in DE is similar to that of US and even Canada - and it's of a different kinds.

It's not corruption in the classical sense, it actually is rational for the state to prefer copper, if the state has investments in copper - in a kind of perverse way.

Less rational and borderline corruption if an individual state actor has personal investments in copper.

'Big Business' is often done on the basis of relationship, of the advice of consultants, and it's far more of a systematic thing than an overt thing.

For example, there is quite a lot of oversight for things like insider trading, and such shenanigans. People are not taking bribes.

It's rational for congressional members to 'fight' for the big government contract to be located in their district, even if it's not the ideal outcome.

This kind of network/influence dysfunction is a huge issue, and it deserves it's own name, because it operates in a different way, has different results and is way more nuanced.

That said it can have major impacts and it is a big deal, it should not be ignored, but it should be recognized as another category.

FYI - if contractors, suppliers etc. all did a really good job, it would matter less. There may or may not have been shenanigans in the allocating to CGI for the big Healthcare.gov project, but the worst part is that it was a failure. If CGI had of done a great job ... well that reduces the issue of how contracts are awarded.

The city of Montreal had some serious problems with low-level 'corruption' when handing out city contracts - as it turns out, it was partly bad acting, but partly because there was no concept of transparency, bidding, no proper systems and checks for how procurement is made, leaving the door open to city officials getting to go to expensive dinners etc..

It's an issue, but of a different kind.

Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#265

Post by lotsofpulp » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 10:41 PM UTC

lioeters wrote: post #183

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He sold his shares hours(!) before being signed on as minister and he sold them to the company that benefited the most from the copper cabling that he pushed for. How you can mistake this obvious corruption for incompetence is beyond me.

This is what I question about Hanlon's razor, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity/incompetence." In practice, when such "incompetence" involves millions (of Euro, dollars, etc.) - and those involved stand to gain from it - we ought to scrutinize it as a possible symptom of "malicious competence". For me, "incompetence" sounds like an excuse or smokescreen, when there are those w…

The purpose of the Hanlon saying is to make people feel good about the world they live in.

Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#266

Post by manquer » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 10:42 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #214

gumby wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is notable for its lack of “retail” or low level corruption (cops don’t take bribes, you can get a building permit by following the rules, etc). One of the best in the world. But at the highest levels the opposite prevails, up there with France or even the US. Not Kleptocracy by any means, but bad by OECD standards. Because it’s so institutionalized it doesn’t really appear in those “corruption index” reports…

I'm from Romania. You don't know how good you have it. The low level corruption is the thing that eats away at your soul and poisons your day to day life. High level corruption? Awful, but we have that too. But having to bribe the nurse so that your grandma gets painkillers (or toilet paper!) in the hospital? Having to bribe the police officer to get your driver's license? Having to bribe the lady at the counter work…

To any individual lower corruption is what that matters most. However as a country it is higher level corruption that costs you the most , all the money governments are spending without oversight on Coronavirus response for example . This is lot costlier to the country than a beat cop taking a bribe .

Most ngos and corruption indices focus too much on lower level corruption instead of both.

Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#267

Post by ihm » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 10:55 PM UTC

papito wrote: post #262

cosmodisk wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All western countries are corrupt. The difference from the usual suspects is the way it's done. If in Russia, it may be as simple as cash in hand, in Germany or Britain it will be kids placement into a nice job, maybe a donation to a family run charity org, or a contract to friend's friend's construction company. Or even the good old one,where you do a favour and 5-7 years later, once not in government position anymo…

It used to be that way. Right now in the United States, the level of corruption that we see is absolutely off the charts and out in the open. It's akin to a strange alien weapon for most Americans, that goes off near you, putting you in a state of trance, and you don't even know what's happening. There is brazenness and blatancy to it, as in "yeah, I did it, what are YOU going to do about it?" In many other countries…

It's been this way for a while (forever?) in the US... Dick Cheney helped start a war (that killed something like 500,000 people) on knowingly false pretenses partly so that he could give his company Halliburton a $7 billion dollar no-bid contract.

Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#268

Post by maest » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 11:04 PM UTC

manquer wrote: post #266

oblio wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Romania. You don't know how good you have it. The low level corruption is the thing that eats away at your soul and poisons your day to day life. High level corruption? Awful, but we have that too. But having to bribe the nurse so that your grandma gets painkillers (or toilet paper!) in the hospital? Having to bribe the police officer to get your driver's license? Having to bribe the lady at the counter work…

To any individual lower corruption is what that matters most. However as a country it is higher level corruption that costs you the most , all the money governments are spending without oversight on Coronavirus response for example . This is lot costlier to the country than a beat cop taking a bribe . Most ngos and corruption indices focus too much on lower level corruption instead of both.

I believe you are underestimating the negative drag low level corruption has on the economy. It means setting up businesses or conducting any commercial activity is slow and fraught with hidden costs and risks. Information isn't usually freely available and solving problems usually involes "knowing someone" and going through backchannels.

Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#269

Post by raincom » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 11:05 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #105

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #4

Also, under Helmut Kohl, despite advice from experts to use fiber, the German government wired the whole country with copper instead because the ministry of infrastructure at the time had stocks in the copper business leaving the country's internet behind Ukraine or Belarus.[1] If you're on the DAX or a politician, you're untouchable in Germany and lots of people inside and outside of Germany have no idea of how insa…

Germany is notable for its lack of “retail” or low level corruption (cops don’t take bribes, you can get a building permit by following the rules, etc). One of the best in the world. But at the highest levels the opposite prevails, up there with France or even the US. Not Kleptocracy by any means, but bad by OECD standards. Because it’s so institutionalized it doesn’t really appear in those “corruption index” reports…

At least in the recent literature, that retail corruption is called "market corruption"--this is what we hear about the most when we talk about corruption in India, Nigeria, etc. There is another variety, more pernicious form of corruption, it is called "network corruption": here, corruption is a product of collusion between various groups over the long term. In the developed world, that's what we see, and it is hard to prevent collusive corruption, since there is no money trail. People leave their jobs as staffers to powerful politicians, and then join the k-street.

Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#270

Post by papito » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 11:06 PM UTC

ihm wrote: post #267

papito wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It used to be that way. Right now in the United States, the level of corruption that we see is absolutely off the charts and out in the open. It's akin to a strange alien weapon for most Americans, that goes off near you, putting you in a state of trance, and you don't even know what's happening. There is brazenness and blatancy to it, as in "yeah, I did it, what are YOU going to do about it?" In many other countries…

It's been this way for a while (forever?) in the US... Dick Cheney helped start a war (that killed something like 500,000 people) on knowingly false pretenses partly so that he could give his company Halliburton a $7 billion dollar no-bid contract.

That's pretty standard corruption. But the Bush administration, as rotten as it was, would at least provide schools with resources to open.

Right now that's not happening. Why? Because there is no money in it. You can't get a kickback from a school, you can't get a lobbying gig, you can't get a board seat. There is nothing to gain.