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Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

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Re: Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

#261

Post by SJetKaran »

shaftway wrote: post #143
Spivak wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you're choosing a definition of the world that's too narrow -- "if you've already decided to go to Walmart then Walmart is the only store that can sell at Walmart." Why isn't "the world" the smartphone market where there are plenty of options?

I think the underlying sentiment is that you've bought the device, so you should be able to do whatever you want with it. And there's no technical reason that your choice of device should preclude other stores. For a more meatspace example let's say you own a car with full self-driving capabilities. Now, the manufacturer of that car also runs a chain of grocery stores. It would be problematic if the car refused to dr…

well put

Re: Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

#262

Post by munk-a »

TAForObvReasons wrote: post #249
dwaite wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to understand this position. Apple Music is in the same position as say Spotify on Google's platform as a third party media service. Is the implication that they should operate differently or be held to a different standard than Spotify? I don't believe Apple has argued that collecting alternate payments in-app would be an undesirable for third party developers on the App Store - just that they don't wish to s…

Apple is both the developer of Apple Music and the operator of the iOS App Store. Apple's Apple Music app is using a tactic on the Google App Store, while Apple's iOS App Store is blocking certain third parties from doing the same. The implication isn't "Apple Music should be barred" but rather "If Apple is working around the 30% cut in other companies' walled gardens, maybe they shouldn't be blocking apps that try t…

Is Apple actually technically the owner of both or are they using some "partially controlled former subsidiary" related BS to try and duck out of responsibility?

Re: Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

#263

Post by city41 »

6510 wrote: post #237

Cant everyone do the Netflix "trick"? Or will small players get banned for it? https://www.pcmag.com/news/netflix-doesnt-pay-apples-ios-tax...

This is the trick Basecamp tried, and Apple blocked them. It seems you can only get away with the trick if Apple views your app as also being beneficial to them.

Re: Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

#264

Post by [deleted] »

snowwrestler wrote: post #234
oillio wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has control of the iOS App market. It is a pretty large barrier for a customer need to switch platforms to get an app that Apple has denied access. I am not a lawyer, but that sure smells like the potential for monopolistic control.

This is like saying 7-11 has a monopoly on what is sold in 7-11 stores. If I want a copy of the King James Bible and 7-11 chooses not to sell that, I have to leave 7-11 and go find another store that does. Yes, that's a barrier I have to go through to get my Bible. Should the government make it 7-11's responsibility to solve that for me?

[deleted]

Re: Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

#265

Post by zaroth »

fastest963 wrote: post #247
zaroth wrote: post #236

This looks like the free market at work to me. Google policy explicitly permits apps like Apple Music to charge for subscriptions outside the App Store and for them to not allow taking subscription payment through the App Store. Apple has a similar policy for “Reader” apps on their own App Store for apps which are used to access content that you subscribe to, which Apple reasons that “Hey” does not qualify for. That’…

Spotify definitely pays 30%. See https://timetoplayfair.com/timeline/ I assume that Hulu also pays the same 30%.

Thanks for the correction. It looks like Netflix also had at one time been paying substantial fees to Apple, and then I see articles from 2019 saying they turned off IAP, but if I look on the App Store right now I can see IAP for Netflix is listed... so I'm definitely confused about the policy.

> Spotify pays Apple a 15% fee for only about 0.5% of its paid members, according to Apple's response to Spotify's complaint about App Store fees.

So Apple gets approximately 0.075% of Spotify revenue through App Store fees.

Here's what Apple's site actually says about their Reader policy;

> 3.1.3(a) “Reader” Apps: Apps may allow a user to access previously purchased content or content subscriptions (specifically: magazines, newspapers, books, audio, music, video, access to professional databases, VoIP, cloud storage, and approved services such as classroom management apps), provided that you agree not to directly or indirectly target iOS users to use a purchasing method other than in-app purchase, and your general communications about other purchasing methods are not designed to discourage use of in-app purchase.

So Reader apps don't get free IAP. It's not clear if they must offer IAP, but certainly it seems at some point both Spotify and Netflix tried to get away from it, but it seems to be back just looking live now at the App Store.

There's also some recent developments where Apple is letting Amazon / Prime Video sell/rent movies and shows by billing your Amazon account in the app now, where-as earlier this year you would have to go through the browser to make the purchase. [2]

I know that I personally only subscribe to Spotify because I listen to it on my iPhone. I've never even tried to use it on a desktop. I also subscribed to Spotify through their website, not through the App Store. I securely downloaded the Spotify app for free, from Apple servers, using an Apple SDK, and get regular automatic updates to the app using Apple's platform.

[1] - https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-fires-back-spotify-pays-fees...

[2] - https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/1/21203630/apple-amazon-prim...

Re: Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

#266

Post by lern_too_spel »

baxtr wrote: post #253
actuator wrote: post #232

I really don't understand why people are defending Apple on this. It seems shameful of a $1.5 trillion company to do this to developers. Even more so when they themselves don't abide by their philosophy. They are extracting out a competitive advantage from this on other services like Spotify or Netflix( even without this they have a big one at app discovery and pre installs on iOS). Kudos to Google for allowing the d…

Imagine for a second distributing an app in 175 countries around the globe including all the tax details. I think it's fair to participate on such a global platform and a price for it.

Apple apparently believes that whether that's a fair price should be up to the publisher to decide when publishing apps for Android, but it doesn't believe that the publisher should get to decide that when publishing on the App Store.

Re: Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

#267

Post by actuator »

baxtr wrote: post #253
actuator wrote: post #232

I really don't understand why people are defending Apple on this. It seems shameful of a $1.5 trillion company to do this to developers. Even more so when they themselves don't abide by their philosophy. They are extracting out a competitive advantage from this on other services like Spotify or Netflix( even without this they have a big one at app discovery and pre installs on iOS). Kudos to Google for allowing the d…

Imagine for a second distributing an app in 175 countries around the globe including all the tax details. I think it's fair to participate on such a global platform and a price for it.

The whole issue is about choice. If what Apple is offering you is worth the 30% cut they ask for, you will pay it. If it is not, you should be free to use your own method and take care of the details like tax yourself. Cross platform things anyway have to solve this problem on their own.

Re: Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

#268

Post by munk-a »

snowwrestler wrote: post #234
oillio wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has control of the iOS App market. It is a pretty large barrier for a customer need to switch platforms to get an app that Apple has denied access. I am not a lawyer, but that sure smells like the potential for monopolistic control.

This is like saying 7-11 has a monopoly on what is sold in 7-11 stores. If I want a copy of the King James Bible and 7-11 chooses not to sell that, I have to leave 7-11 and go find another store that does. Yes, that's a barrier I have to go through to get my Bible. Should the government make it 7-11's responsibility to solve that for me?

I'm not certain how this is considered to be analogous - is the assumption that other retailers would need to forward customers to 7/11 when 7/11 carries a good a client is interested in?

As a possibly better analogy... Let's say I run a Flea market and also direct sell some items to customers. I charge independent retailers a fee for setting up a booth in my market space and don't excise that same fee from my own booths. Then I go to open a booth in a local mall to help sell some of my directly vendored items and raise an exception all the way to city hall that the mall attempting to charge me for running a booth in their property is impeding the free flow of commerce and hurting the local economy - while I continue to charge booths in my market space for operating.

Re: Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

#269

Post by millstone »

bduerst wrote: post #252
millstone wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's literally every company trying to increase their marketshare.

Anti-competitive behavior is different than typical growth operations.

I agree, that's my point. Growth moves you towards having a monopoly, but growth by itself is not anti-competitive.

Re: Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

#270

Post by actuator »

dang wrote: post #259

Is there a better source for this? A screenshot and an indignation comment ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23564731 ) are poor initial conditions for a thread, but this thread seems to be doing well despite that, so I don't think we need to demote this submission, but it would be better to find an article to change the URL to.

It is not super clear from this but is mentions choosing your payment method and using your Apple id: https://www.macrumors.com/how-to/use-apple-music-on-android/...
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