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A two-person startup already uses twenty-eight other tools

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Re: A two-person startup already uses twenty-eight other tools

#261
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The individuals in aggregate may be toddlers, but unfortunately the C-suite as individuals are often also toddlers, at least vis a vis their responsibilities. Tasked with providing IT infrastructure that works for the company, they seem to largely shirk their responsibility and choose IT infrastructure that best serves them, the needs of others be damned. CIOs will seemingly gladly choose something that provides a go…

> this corporate disdain for quality of work environment You may find the term "managerialism" handy. It's the belief that managers and execs are the central story of a company, that everything must flow through them, especially key decisions. And of course, that as the special people, they deserve outsized rewards. It's the dominant philosophy of US business, and although it seems eternal to us, it was invented in t…

What do you call the paradigm in old-world militaries, where a lord would conscript their knights as officers during wartime; grant them "personal" budgets; and then each knight could take that budget and use it however they wished—by investing in technology, fortifications, or salaried subordinate hires, in any mix they liked, as long as it got the job done?

Yes, it's "feudalism", but it's a specific part of feudalism, that deserves to be called out separately—the idea that "everything must flow" through the org chart in a literal sense, with each node on the org-chart entirely encapsulating everything below it on the chart from the view of those above, such that the knight's liege-lord really doesn't know how they're getting the job done, just that they are or aren't; and has no actual capacity to micro-manage the HR decisions of the knight, with the lord's only controls on their knight being to change their budget, or to fire them.

In a way, it's less like what we're doing today in bigcorps, and more like what you get on the other end, when everyone is an individual, atomized contractor selling their services to everyone else. You can't see "through" a contractor-client relationship to the contractor's employees and/or subcontractors; you can only fire the contractor, or renegotiate their rate.

IMHO, while this paradigm might seem inefficient in ways, it still seems like a better "organizational architecture" than managerialism. Perhaps because, given the encapsulation, a punishment coming from your boss's boss can never "run downhill" to end up falling on you (though, nor can a reward); instead, each node on the org-chart can only rewrd/punish their direct report. At some point someone on the org-chart claims ultimate responsibility for getting the job done; and even if it came down to you, three nodes lower, failing to do it, it would still be their head, because it's their promise to their liege-lord.

Such a paradigm is inconvenient, in the sense that if your boss is fired, that means that you're out of a job—you were being paid, effectively, out of your boss's salary. But it's also convenient, in the sense that you can just apply for a job with another part of the company (really, apply to another superior to work for them), and there won't be any institutional bias (e.g. records of a "Performance Improvement Plan" against you because of a bad previous boss's poisonous office-politicking, only the personal biases of the boss's direct friends, who you can just avoid.)

Re: A two-person startup already uses twenty-eight other tools

#262

From the other side (vendor perspective) we see this SaaS fatigue a lot. We have a free, open source, unlimited use product that has a very good, commercial, alternative. What we hear in calls is that there are just too many SaaS tools in the company and the monthly cost (or security review of all tools) ends up with the management saying "pick your top 5,10,15 most important" and drop the rest. The GSuites, Slacks,…

I’m assuming you’re talking about draw.io. What’s your business model?

Charging only for Atlassian integrations, that’s where the revenue/effort ratio is best.

Re: A two-person startup already uses twenty-eight other tools

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your CFO got sold ... twice. Concur and NetSuite are both enterprise level software that a company with 50 FTEs does not need. NetSuite is a never ending money pit with varying results. I dealt with a very similar situation, in which a project manager("VP") talked our owner into using NS, but it was over $100k/year and commitments were 2 years per seat at something like $5k. He ALSO wanted to do the roll out himself.…

Weirdly, almost exactly 20 years ago, I sat next to somebody at a wedding who had an almost-identical story about cleaning up after an SAP rollout, but all of the numbers had an extra zero or two. It amazes me that what the SaaS shift appears to have achieved is that now much smaller companies can get stuck in the same "solve everything" money pit. But I guess the fundamental problem hasn't changed: executives want t…

20+ years ago, same for Seibel

Re: A two-person startup already uses twenty-eight other tools

#264
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can use use it forever without a license, but you shouldn't. There are lots of honour based / social contracts that essentially function because enough of us abide by them. If enough people do not, they go away. Or as the saying goes, "this is why we can't have nice things."

So someone should uninstall the program and download a true open source product like vscode. Because using it by the terms listed on the download page is breaking a social contract. If we don't no one will offer a free editor again? - There is a reason they offered a free unlimited trial. They were unknown and by offering it for free they increased popularity, increased business / education licenses sold. By me switc…

VSCode is not "true open source product". It's event not open source. It's "open core", i.e. proprietary version of "code" project with additional proprietary components: telemetry, special configuration and so on.

Re: A two-person startup already uses twenty-eight other tools

#265
post #38
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No reason to look at Slack like that. It may be well worth the price. When company really starts using Slack it replaces the whole communication system of company, think at the level of replacing the complete Exchange/Outlook system, the whole intra-company email. It's pretty big deal. And that's why they can charge that level of subscription.

Compared to a salary, it is nothing. If your company functions and people are more productive because of it, ~$80 a year is nothing.

I’d be more productive without slack.

It’s useful for distributed teams, and for incident response, but basic messaging + jira/github + zoom cover those use cases better.

Slack was OK before the bot stuff and integration with ldap/email groups landed. Now, it’s at least as spammy as email, except not searchable, the (non customizable) UI is worse, and the social norm is that you spend 100% of the day checking a firehose of broadcast messages and machine generated spam (in some teams, even after working hours).

Re: A two-person startup already uses twenty-eight other tools

#266
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is Discord always ignored in discussions of slack alternatives? It's literally a slack clone. Are you all just put off by the marketing or the fact that it's not exclusively used by 'professionals'?

Is it still required to have a phone to sign up for discord? That's what puts me off.

That's never been required as far as I know?

Re: A two-person startup already uses twenty-eight other tools

#267

I am the CIO of a mostly remote, cybersecurity startup (50 FTEs). I balance between not single-threading all choices through me and not letting things get too out of hand. That means no one is every really happy. E.g., we use Uberconference for videoconferencing. We thoroughly looked at a bunch of others and chose UC for its functionality, price, and simplicity (every conference gets a simple phone number, no stupid…

>A few month later, sales went out and bought 10 mf’ing Zoom licenses without consulting anyone because some client hadn’t heard of UC and asked if it was the budget solution. They have a point, the more things you need a client to do out of the ordinary the more friction you will get selling them. New UI for them to figure out, new permissions, etc. Depending on your business model as a startup that can be a bad thi…

> Employees have the most view into what would make their job more efficient or engaging.

Employees in aggregate know the true answers to those things. Employees individually sometimes do, but often do not. For example, if you have a stone-aged development process on an ancient revision of an unsupported language, and you poll your employees, they'll all want change. They'll all want ... different changes/processes/pet programming languages, too.

Re: A two-person startup already uses twenty-eight other tools

#268
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The individuals in aggregate may be toddlers, but unfortunately the C-suite as individuals are often also toddlers, at least vis a vis their responsibilities. Tasked with providing IT infrastructure that works for the company, they seem to largely shirk their responsibility and choose IT infrastructure that best serves them, the needs of others be damned. CIOs will seemingly gladly choose something that provides a go…

Part of the problem here is that there is a balance to be struck with these sorts of things: Cost, User experience, Mange-ability, and time spent shopping around rather than just going with the industry-default or one with the best sales-team. Responsible decision-makers have to make trade-offs. When you say > Reports...are roundly ignored That lack of weight given to your experience as a signal of real business cost…

You’re giving advice on how to be persuasive, and it’s rare I find comments as off-putting as yours.

Re: A two-person startup already uses twenty-eight other tools

#269
post #63
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True but you don’t pay subscription for your chairs. You do pay rent, but in many case the sum of SaaS subscription is in the same order of magnitude as the rent.

Is this only true for US-based companies? Where I'm from, I rarely see use of subscription services (especially ones that incur per-seat costs). Developers here tend to earn roughly the same number , but in a different currency , which makes all software and services several times more expensive. This results in preference of OSS alternatives and free tiers whenever possible. We use Discord for communication, Gitlab…

Gitlab is a good example, we had to leave the free tier in order to get features that Gitlab specifically chose to be in the paid tier because their absence is a big blocker when you grow... So we pay $100/mo/seat on Gitlab.

We also use at least 10 paid general-purpose tools that each fill a real need (we don't keep tools we don't use):

- Notion for knowledge management

- Airtable to manage operations data (not customer data)

- Hubspot for Sales and Marketing

- Lattice for HR

- Spendesk for expenses management

- Quickbooks for accounting

- Typeform for various customer feedback

- Zoom for remote work and link between our offices

- GSuite for everything in it

- Figma for UI design

- Recruitee for recruitment management

And finally, add also at least 10 paid Engineering-specific tools:

- Gitlab of course

- AWS for hosting of course

- Cloudflare for DNS stuff

- Sentry for error reporting

- Crowdin for internationalization

- FullStory for UX studies

- Apollo engine to get decent analytics about our backend

- Webflow for our Website (Not for the webapp of course)

- Pagerduty for operations

- We used Cloudcraft at some point to have an idea how our AWS stack look like

I could go on... But in the end, you end up with ~10 Saas tools peer seat, with costs from $2 to $100 per tool. And it is valuable, we pay them because they are worth it. But yes this is an interesting trend...

Re: A two-person startup already uses twenty-eight other tools

#270

IMO startups, especially small ones should use as many tools as possible, because it is way cheaper than having to develop and maintain a similar thing in house, OR hiring a new person just to cover that. $200 a month is really very small cost compared to the alternative of hiring and spending many hours on that. You can always come back and replace the vendor once the company gets funded and has more resources.

Author says it's a 2 person startup. We use communication and collaboration tools such as Skype, Google docs, Dropbox, WhatsApp, etc for personal communication which costs €0.

Some of the expenses mentioned in the article can be easily taken off with those free tools which are just as good, if not better. If you develop an in-house tool for comms and collaboration, it will be an overkill for even a big startup.

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