Live data from Hacker News

Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

cbc.ca

261–270 of 323 posts

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#261
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expensive to build and cheap to run ignores the high decommissioning and long term waste management costs (both financial & practical impacts). If you add that to the kilowatt price, nuclear tends to end up more expensive than most other options.

Citation needed. Also, don’t try to include plants that were shut down early or plants built on designs from the 50s.

Your oblique point that the costs for newer reactors are probably going to be less than older reactors is acknowledged, but it's still a cost consideration.

https://www.oecd-nea.org/ndd/pubs/2016/7201-costs-decom-npp....

A lot of this report seems to indicate that estimating future decommissioning costs is hard. The costs are estimates, often created by those with a financial incentive to keep the estimate low. In 50 or so years time the reality of decommissioning might be very difficult.

On the waste aspect: "The cost of managing spent nuclear fuel ... is not always included in the cost of decommissioning, but is often treated separately. This is even more the case for the final disposal of fuel or related waste, which is a major source of costs in waste management, particularly for high-level waste."

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, but bomb waste and spent fuel rods are separate subjects. The volume of fuel rods we're talking about here is small enough that for the most part the spent fuel rods are stored on-site at the plants. Not a great long term solution, especially since the plants don't have facilities designed for it. They're in above ground casks that are lined up in the open spaces around the plant. However, long term inter…

Every technology has pros & cons, effects & residues. Coal : Effect/Pros - Energy/Cheap. Residue/Cons - C02/GlobalWarming Nuclear : Effect/Pros - Energy/Clean. Residue/Cons - RadioactiveWaste/Contamination. Where do the nuclear byproducts go currently ? Into the earth? Rivers? Oceans? 30 years ago, we switched from paper based products to plastic, to save trees. Today, we want to switch from plastic based products to…

I think it gets dumped off the coast of Somalia, actually.

Obviously, capitalism isn't very good at accounting for externalities, whether they are measured in birth defects, or in degrees centigrade - but I think global warming is a bit more extreme in scale than your typical pollution issue.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#263
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even in 'all-nuke' France 7 to 11% of the powergrid is produced by fossil-fuel plants. Yeah, they're not 100% nuclear. In any case, their results are far better than countries who eschewed nuclear. France produces one-tenth the carbon pollution from electricity [compared to Germany]. French electricity costs are just 59% of German electricity prices. As such, according to the prevailing economic wisdom, French elec…

It is apparently cheaper because in France, as in many countries, the nuke was and remains heavily subsided, decommission costs under evaluated, mishaps hidden... The French public financial auditing institution (la Cour des Comptes) published in 2012 that public nuke investments are opaque, and that it costed around 228 10e9 euros, plus nowadays 3.4 10e9 euros per year for the sole maintenance. Nuke risk is what it…

What you wrote is so disingenuous it is unbelievable.

So 228B€ for 50 years of 85% of the electricity consumption, and decarbonised. When with the push for renewable, it will cost 121B€ for currently 5,1% of wind and 1.9% for solar. Currently nuclear electricity is bought 42€/MWh by the useless competitor thanks to the ARENH, when wind cost us 89.4€/MWh and solar 294€/MWh and are not dispatchable, uncorrelated with consumption, intermittent, and will also add 30B€ to the grid because of the decentralised organisation. Also renewable made us build a gaz plan in Landivisiau because Brittany opposed the Plogoff nuclear plant and renewable are unreliable.

Also you failed to mention, that what droved the rise in French electricity is solely because of the renewable.

Germany didn't solve it's problem its electricity is still heavily carbonated.

https://i.imgur.com/zatyuXX.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EK2NouwWkAERV5V?format=jpg&name=...

https://www.ccomptes.fr/sites/default/files/2018-04/20180418...

https://www.cre.fr/content/download/19506/file/Annexe%201_CS...

https://www.cre.fr/content/download/19600/file/Calculs%20Tar...

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacte_%C3%A9lectrique_breton

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#264
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France could have gone 100% nuclear, french nuclear reactors can adapt their load to the demand intra-day. It is not a technical decision.

No, nuke is for base-load, it cannot be started/stopped in 10 minutes (in France, as in many countries, hydro dams are used as buffers).

French nuclear can make varies its plant at 3-5 %Pr/minute, when cumulating 53 reactors, it is a lot.

Also nuclear is 20% of the marginal electricity (the one that varies).

http://www.oecd-nea.org/nea-news/2011/29-2/aen-infos-suivi-c...

https://www.tmrow.com/static/c90a14e6fe7e73b4c60963818f9041e...

https://www.tmrow.com/blog/marginal-carbon-intensity-of-elec...

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#265
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent is talking about load following. Nuclear power plants can absolutely load follow the diurnal predicted demand closely. Most power demand is forecast very accurately with only small amounts of new generation dispatched or load shedded to account for the smaller variances, or when outages happen on some part of the grid.

Indeed, however all this neglects that solar produces during peak hours, and that multiple production sites are possible (benefiting from various meteorological conditions). The huge powergrid it implies isn't very different from the one nuke powerplants already need (given that many cannot sit nearby huge cities), that both wind and solar in such a wide area not producing enough is a rare occurrence. Transporting en…

Solar doesn't product for french peak hours (8h and 19h) it is uncorrelated (Pearson correlation) with load. And solar is also auto-correlated on France scale, same with wind.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJuknaqXkAAwbWn?format=jpg&name=...

https://twitter.com/hokkos/status/1196564989022220289

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#266
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The waste disposal problem has been solved at the Onkalo Nuclear Waste Repository in Finland. It's a deep geologic repository without the political fights associated with Yucca. Deep geologic repositories are basically a consensus solution now. Finns chose to solve the nuclear waste issue and did it. Fukushima killed up to 1 person from radiation. Meanwhile fossil is killing 4.3 million people per year via air pollut…

Urenco only does uranium enrichment, waste management is vastly more than this > France and most of Europe use Urenco. I'm French, and can see the result: waste is piling up nearby the plants. Deep geological repositories are given as the ultimate solution since the 1970's at least, and there is _NO_ exploited site. Cigéo/Bure (in France) is only a project. Yucca Mountain never ran and is halted. On a similar vein se…

Superphenix is only a failure because of the socialist pact with the ecologist to gain a few votes asked them to close it. It would have solved all waste and supply issues.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#267
post #177
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure sounds great, what are the best and worst case costs of storing that stuff for how long? And yes i know dry cask storage is much less problematic, but i would still want a realistic plan of what is happening to that stuff and what this is going to cost. What irks me so much is that i am not simply told, look here it what it currently costs, how it would scale and what the realistic liabilities are. If you were a…

I think one additional factor here is that storage isn't the only option. Once a larger amount of waste needs to be managed the attractiveness of fast breeder reactors starts to increase. These reactors can then extract more energy from this high level "waste" (really fuel for fast breeder reactors). These reactors would then reduce the volume of this waste by a factor of about 100. So in the end, those 400 car-sized…

That is still theoretical so for any reasonable waste model, we cannot factor that in. If it turns out to be the case, we might be able to channel a lot of the money set a side for waste management, into other things such as better energy options.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#268

With regards to Ontario, who are part of this announcement, the nuclear plant with the largest operating output is located in the province: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Nuclear_Generating_Stati... There are a couple that have larger installed capacity, but some of it is shutdown: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_power_stations Interestingly, Bruce Power has a 'special forces' / SWAT team that…

Off topic, but does anyone else notice that Lake Huron doesn't seem to exist on the Wikimedia map tiles used for the map in the first link?

Noticed that as well. They're using OpenStreetMap, so it may be a rendered bug (?).

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#269
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am opposed to depleted uranium armaments, and while they have been shown to have significant health effects (especially on the populations stuck living in the areas where the amunition was used), it has been ruled out as a likely cause of gulf war syndrome which is linked to the use of non-nuclear toxic chemics. Indeed, while I don't have specific numbers to prove this, I highly suspect that the health risks of non…

You've been very reasonable with your arguments. I appreciate that. We obviously aren't going to solve anything on a comment board. I would argue that the effects on US soil, the leaks into the Columbia river from Washington are incomparable to the Marshall Islands. But I feel we may be moving the goal posts in our discussion.

Funnily enough depleted uranium, the testing site in the Marshall Islands and the Handford plutonium production site are are military uses of nuclear technology and don't really have much at all to do with nuclear power.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#270
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is apparently cheaper because in France, as in many countries, the nuke was and remains heavily subsided, decommission costs under evaluated, mishaps hidden... The French public financial auditing institution (la Cour des Comptes) published in 2012 that public nuke investments are opaque, and that it costed around 228 10e9 euros, plus nowadays 3.4 10e9 euros per year for the sole maintenance. Nuke risk is what it…

What you wrote is so disingenuous it is unbelievable. So 228B€ for 50 years of 85% of the electricity consumption, and decarbonised. When with the push for renewable, it will cost 121B€ for currently 5,1% of wind and 1.9% for solar. Currently nuclear electricity is bought 42€/MWh by the useless competitor thanks to the ARENH, when wind cost us 89.4€/MWh and solar 294€/MWh and are not dispatchable, uncorrelated with c…

> So 228B€ for 50 years of 85% of the electricity consumption

Nope. Nuke plant did not provide 85% during those 50 years. It even doesn't today (only about 71%). In 1971 approximatively approx 5% of the French gridpower was produced by nuke plants. Source: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrie_nucl%C3%A9aire_en_Fr... How exactly do you think it may have produced 85% of the gridpower for 50 years? This is inept and misleading.

Moreover 228B€ is an estimation, the report states (folio 270) that the information is not available, mixed up with all other activities of EDF. The real cost may be superior. Everyone is free to interpret such opacity as good or bad sign.

Even worse, the report explicitly states that it completely neglects the first batch of R&D, when civilian and military domains where not clearly separated, which was a major effort. Source: (folio 36) https://www.ccomptes.fr/sites/default/files/EzPublish/Rappor...

Therefore a fair part of fundamental research isn't accounted in those 228B€.

Also: nuke energy is not (completely) decarbonised. Fuel extraction, transport... aren't.

> When with the push for renewable, it will cost 121B€ for currently 5,1% of wind and 1.9% for solar.

This 121B€ budget is not spent, as it starts in... 2018, ending in 2047! Putting it in front of the production right now is at best 'disingenuous', it is in fact a huge lie. You can't read the future, you can't know what renewables will produce in the 2019 to 2047 timeframe and afterwards, therefore there is no conclusion to draw, no way to consider this investment as a bad one.

> Currently nuclear electricity is bought 42€/MWh by the useless competitor thanks to the ARENH

Only 100TW (about 1/4 of the production), sold by specification at a price equal to the nuke official production price. Given the credits nuke engulfed and the decades of monopoly, this is a very low-key counterbalancing measure.

> when wind cost us 89.4€/MWh and solar 294€/MWh and are not dispatchable, uncorrelated with consumption, intermittent, and will also add 30B€ to the grid because of the decentralised organisation.

Germany chose this horrible wind/solar/biomass path. Poor Germans, they don't know that those challenges have no solution, that they are doomed to fail. You should inform them. An EPR or two may save them!

> Also renewable made us build a gaz plan in Landivisiau because Brittany opposed the Plogoff nuclear plant and renewable are unreliable.

A transition costs. At its very beginning nuke was engulfing huge amounts of money without producing anything significant during the 1950-1970 period.

After 70 years, right now, nuke isn't a newborn, however new projects are very (very!) overbudget and late (Olkiluoto, Flamanville).

> Also you failed to mention, that what droved the rise in French electricity is solely because of the renewable.

Source?

> Germany didn't solve it's problem its electricity is still heavily carbonated.

This is a work in progress. At least do they really search for an elegant (non polluting but also not risk-inducing) solution, instead of raising the risk by letting aging plant run after their planned end-of-life date.

French vs. Germany, on an industrial challenge. Lemme try to guess who will win...

Post reply on HN